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Did you know that, before the Big Bang, there was no time?

Time started when the BB occurred?

That bothers my mind, since I have always thought of time as independent of matter, but without matter, there can be no time, and there was no matter until the BB occurred?

I suppose time could have existed prior to the BB and then stopped, but then, you really can't say it was "prior" in that situation, since, once time stops, there can be no "after" or "prior"? That, in and of itself, is a hard-to-grasp idea for me.

Science tells the public that they are wrong, and that there is no beginning of time. Then, when the public finally grasps that idea, science tells the public that, wait a minute, there was a beginning. Fun fun.

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Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

Well you know Syd, in the beginning the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad thing.
The universe is big, really big! You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly big it is.

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Unless.. it's all going in a neverending loop because of some quantum programming error, without beginning nor end! *Gasp*

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-= Ho Eyo He Hum =-

The universe fits into the twinkle of a childs eye and time is a matter of perception and does not truely exist as we preceive it.

The universe has no begining or end unless you consider the "Big Bang" the begining which its not because something had to exist before hand to create the "Bang". Thus the begining and the end are a matter of perspective as well.

Being tiny little creatures with tiny little brains we grasp so little of the story of existence, perhaps we but see a letter...a word...maybe someday a sentence but in our short little lives we can never read the whole story.

Hindu's had already stated 5000 years ago that this is not the first time the universe has exploded only to collapse on itself once more. It took all our supercomputers and the worlds greatest minds years to figure out that this may actually be the truth...

They also say that to understand all of existence is very simple...you simply understand yourself...

It is all an illusion and only by your thoughts is it given substance.

Dev
The Mad Hermit who lives in the cave...or does he...

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

There is no universe.

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-= HellRazor =-
Shattered Sosaria is coming!
http://www.shatteredsosaria.com

There may not be a "Universe" but there is..."The Thread of the Undead!"



I'm not sure which one I'm more terrified of...

Dev

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

But which came first the begining of time or the undead thread?

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Hmm..maybe time is the curse of the dead to harvest more members for their ranks!

*Smashes his Rolex!* Their not getting me!

Dev

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

Time as it's nature is uncotrollable, unstoppable, uncountable and non-beginning-non-ending substance. Humans only get a illusion of graduation of it by navigating at physical moves of a only one star, when there is uncountable infinitivity of them in all universe, and every one of them the time have different graduation.
Time cannot be stopped as fact the universe end to exist in that moment as far as all university processes will stop together with no possibility in reboot. Taking one tiny gear will make the universe clocks to stop.
Time have no end as it will keep exist and move. No matter what will be in future, but the future will be! And even if there will be the last one neutron in whole world there will be a time, because that electron will have speed.
The time have no beginning, as far as its impossible how many Big Bangs was before "our one" and nobody tell you was it or not in fact.

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The time is like the vacuum - you cant touch it, you cant see it, you cant understand it... but you know, that it exists...
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Xenoth, 2003y.

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"Be calm and silent, as Darkness care not of passions and lies. Be patient and cold, as Darkness exists out of borders of time and emotions. Just be yourself, as You are in the Darkness and Darkness is inside of you."
-Dark Ones Doctrine, 2001y (c)-

I think, therefore I am.

_________________
-= HellRazor =-
Shattered Sosaria is coming!
http://www.shatteredsosaria.com

Time is like...a chocolate bar. It melts on your tounge.

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-= Ho Eyo He Hum =-

Hmm...I think Xuri may have something there...

Dev

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

Time, my dears, is nothing more than another of mankind's feeble attempts to control.

But I've enjoyed reading this thread. Interesting. *smiles*

From what I understand about Quantum Physics and such (which is a lot less than I'd care to admit) time is also relative to how fast you are moving, how fast the objects around you are moving, and gravitational pull also has a lot to do with it.

Time as we percieve it is actually the measurement of something. How long the seasons take to change, the rate at which a human life expires... etc.

So it's really nothing more than a mathmatical calculation, same as measuring the radius of a circle, or how far you've moved along the road.

If you can wrap your brain around that it becomes easy to see how time can be affected or altered through outside elements. A theory exists that if you could move fast enough in the right direction, you could witness prior events, because you would be able to catch up with the light waves that refracted from said event. Of course in order to perceive these waves as a whole you would actually have to perceive things from a way we as humans are incapable of seeing. This is where the theory of time being the 4th dimension comes into play.

Of course in being able to perceive 3 dimensional objects from a higher dimension you would also technically be able to see inside the object as well. Imagine being able to see the internal workings of your own body. Sounds kinda crazy doesn't it?

I'd also like to point out that at some point according to the big bang theory and everything collapsing upon itself, we disprove the theory of the universe being an infinite space. Unless of course the infinite is defined by the capability of itself to be wrapped in upon itself, in which case the positive force that propels all heavenly bodies (read all matter in space) outwards becomes a negative increment which either wraps everything back around into itself, or pulls everything backwards... of course in the case of pulling everything backwards you would have to be able to de-increment the force of movement by a set number, which is not feasible, in that force de-increments as a percentage.

Thus one can only come to the conclusion that matter will never stop moving through space as long as it is not affected by an outside source other than gravitational pull. Of course this also assumes that said force is not being affected by friction, and only by gravitational pull. Which is technically the case with all matter in space.

And then we get into anti-matter and all kinds of fun stuff.

But I think I'll leave that for a later point in the discussion.

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Better Deader

Wow. A thread tailor-made for me, the budding astrophysicist.

Nezgruhel, the stuff you're talking about is mostly relativity, not quantum. The bit about time going faster or slower depending on relative velocities is known as special relativity, and time's dependence on gravitational fields is general relativity. I've had classes in both, but similar to what you said, my understanding of these things is far less than I'd like.

Most physicists feel that time is an intrinsic property of the universe, and only the units we measure in are arbitrary. Think about it like this: You're in a room with a table, but you don't have a meterstick. Does the table not have a length just because you can't measure it? The length (width, height, etc.) of the table is a property of the table, and it doesn't matter if someone is there to measure it or not. That's how most physicists view time... at least for now.

aka Reu, I like the philosophy, but I don't agree with the conclusion. We take "time" and mark it into seconds, minutes, hours, days, whatever... But even without us to do such things, the fundamental laws of physics would remain unchanged. The only "control" we have is in our ability to force (or recognize) different ways of measurement.

As a chocoholic, I whole-heartedly concur Xuri.

As for the non-ending cycle of Big Bangs, and the idea that our universe will eventually collapse back in on itself, the recent WMAP (Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe, I think) measurements indicate that not only is the universe still expanding, it's accelerating as well. As near as we can tell, this means that the "end state" of the universe is a slow heat death as the volume of the universe expands to infinity, not a violent re-collapse.

I like the idea of a quantum programming error, but that would only happen if I programmed it...

Syd, you're right, there was no time before the Big Bang. It's the "uncaused cause", or whatever, for any non-religious, scientific-minded person (which I don't claim to be). It's not something that's easily understood in any case.

Anyway, the "best" explanation I've heard of "time" is that time occurs because entropy is increasing. Every action, every event, every everything, increases entropy. Most people (even a lot of physicists) think of entropy as decay or disorder, but that's not quite it. Entropy is simply a measure of available states. For instance, a coin toss has a very low entropy, because the result is one of two states: heads or tails. A more complex system, say, three boxes with three different colored beanbags, has more entropy, because there are more available states. However, in the scenario of the heat death of the universe, there are too many available states for anything ordered to occur, statistically speaking.

Now that I've thrown out all that jumble of information, I'll vanish into the corner and watch the chaos that ensues.

Ah, I stand corrected. The definition of Quantum Physics being the study of the subatomic and how it relates to matter/energy on a molecular level. Of course I was way out of context, but eventually this all ties in together. Theories on relativity affect everything, regardless...

Although I will stand down on the matter, because it was obviously out of place for me to call what I was referring to Quantum Physics (at least in the context it was presented) even if all things included are affected at the subatomic level.

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Better Deader

*Sigh*

The measurements of motion using the point of stellar bodies and gravitational forces are not indicative of "Time". That would be like calling the color "orange", "green". While it is a color it is not time...

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/Time.html

Definitions of the various forms of "Time" we gnat minded humans use.

By definition of the link, we perceive time as nothing more than our position in the universe/solar system which would be partially correct but completely incorrect at the same time.

The wheel on a car spins at a higher rate than the objects revolving around it; does that imply the tire is traveling through time faster than the objects around it? NO! It simply decays from ?Friction? faster?

What we call "Time" is nothing more than friction on an atomic level that causes things to "Age" as we perceive "Age" to be, but that is not true "Time".

If time is directly linked to the movement of planets and their gravimetric forces then to stop time we simply have to stop all motion...how infantile...

"Time" is something that a human mind cannot grasp in its true form. Based off the previous discussion, all man needs to do to travel back in time is motion and speed...incorrect. All "Times" of humanity exist in the same time/space as existing objects and is not relative to what we perceive as motion.

Look at time this way?an air plane flies but to fly it must gain speed where by it generates lift which causes it to increase in height then it does the opposite to land. If time was a constant, the plane would not be able to fly based on our current definition of time since its movement was not consistent nor the effects of gravity which increase during flight.

Time as we see it is nothing more than friction. This would explain why no one has ever been able to find a way to time travel. Their barking up an oak tree, while time itself is in the sycamore down at the end of the block.

People are to linier in their thought, you have to view ?Time? as a true three dimensional object +1. Did it ever occur to anyone that while things decay from this perceived friction that the objects are also decaying on the ?harmonics? level. Meaning that the frequencies of the atoms in a given object from its time of creation are slowing at a fixed rate and that the harmonics of the very fabric of reality are also changing? Think of vapor trails when you think of ?Time? the past is the physical now decayed ?Harmonically? yet existing in the same point in space.
Time is not linier but a true multidimensional object without form (Mostly because we can not see the whole body not because it is without true form).

Humans! *Piff!* Give them a crayon and they think they can color...

Dev

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

While I can agree with you on some points here Dev, on others you almost seem to contradict yourself... and maybe you meant to?

While I agree that time can be considered a more universally measured substance, beyond the laws of relativity and physics, constantly measured to the same beat regardless of changes... this is more of a whimsical / spiritual / contemplative means of looking at it.

Now I may have gotten you completley wrong, and if so I apologize. But I'd also like to say there is nothing wrong with taking time into consideration on either a literal scientific level or something beyond the bounds of that.

Of course their is no way for science to quantify such things in the later case, and anybody can theorize a completely different resolution. It doesn't make them wrong, faith alone makes them right, which is how I take into consideration anything following those same lines.

That's why I'll stick to the scientific theories. I was blessed with being both a left and right brained person. I can perform artistically as well as I can code. I think I tend to lean towards the more scientific methods behind things, though not in the sense that I am limited by my current understanding or environment to quantify things. I guess one would say I won't limit myself into considering the unbeleivable is not possible.

I think science and religion / theology / etc fit well nicely together. You may think I'm mad, but anything can be explained via theology and science, and it can even be done working together.

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Better Deader

Yep you missed the whole thing.

People see the result of one side of time and base their observations off what they can see as an end result is what I was pointing out.

True time is a little more complex than they give it credit and is does not flow in a straight line.

Different "times" are nothing more than the increase or decrease in the frequency of the harmonics of the fabric of reality. The action of moving causes an increase of energy which creates "time" but then the motion decays from there. Each of those levels of harmonic energy is a moment in time unto itself. What you did 300 years ago as a child is still happening in the same location because of the harmonic frequencies slowing fading away.

The mear act of walking leaves a "Time" vapor trail behind you so to speak.

Then there is the true string theory which I think is still a little to generalized and 2 dimensional which would dictate that each of those various harmonic frequencies can split into different time lines by subtle changes in action of their own. Each self perpetuating...thus for every atom you came into contact with there could literally be an infinite number of branched time lines which continued from that point and each would be self perpetuating...

Elementary mathmatic's for the shallow dabbler to ponder while taking a crap.

Dev

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

But is the glass half empty? Or is it half full?

_________________
-= HellRazor =-
Shattered Sosaria is coming!
http://www.shatteredsosaria.com

That question has always bothered me...it seems that no one ever thought it might be "in the middle"...

Personality test were written by accountants!

Dev

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

That's a no brainer; it is both
Always hated that stupid question

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This space for rent.

Well, how about this one?

How much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck would chuck wood?

_________________
-= HellRazor =-
Shattered Sosaria is coming!
http://www.shatteredsosaria.com

My brain is ready to blow... {*splash*}

_________________
"Be calm and silent, as Darkness care not of passions and lies. Be patient and cold, as Darkness exists out of borders of time and emotions. Just be yourself, as You are in the Darkness and Darkness is inside of you."
-Dark Ones Doctrine, 2001y (c)-

As much wood as a wood chuck would if a wood chuck could chuck wood.

But really, there is no glass.

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This space for rent.