Ryandor.com

I think you just want to vent, Dev. I read the whole thing, and agree, and have done so for long before I read it. I am one of those nerds who believed in (at least the potential for the feasibility of) a not-so-hole-ridden ?matrix? way before the blockbuster stole credit and made anyone preaching the idea a lonely copycat.

Yes, the guy is a bit number-prone for a very theoretical paper, but I appreciate the many easily-skipped-over graphs and citations, since they back up an otherwise difficult to believe theory. Any amount of simple investigation can reveal the truth behind his numbers, but being the lazy idiots we are, having them with nice pretty graphics makes it easier to swallow than if you were left to your own devices to validate any of it.

As for why you would want to abandon your biological bodies in favor of mechanical ones when you can imp? I?ll stop now. What the fuck, dev? What the fuck?

?

You are not that pretty.

?Why would you want to switch to integrated circuits, when you can just make better vacuum tubes??

*tears the hook out of his jaw again*

Damnit, Dev. *takes his fishing pole away*

_________________
Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

This is a reply to the whole Singularity paper in ?Chat? ? moved it here, because I couldn?t bring myself to replace my swear words with ****

_________________
Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

LOL! No I actually think the guy is an idiot and yes the matrix thing is something I think is real also but I think he's way off base and perhaps should have thought his theory through a little more.

Humanity cannot help itself now and you honestly think that we will ever make it to what he is proposing? How many members of the religious community will do any of the nano/neural modifications he is saying will become common place?.....none?

The human soul cannot be contained in a nanobot or semi-conductor. Being a "HUGE" geek myself yet religious I can see the desire for the things he's talking about to come true and at the same time I can see how quickly the world would reject such a proposal with such force that it would never be offered again.

What he was proposing was the extinction of the human race but in a "politically correct" way. He can put what ever he wants on the pill so long as he's the only one to eat it, because if he comes near me with it I will show him what hell looks like from a first hand view as I punch a hole in his ***** chest and drag his soul there myself.

Humanity is nothing more than glorified lemmings, we rush after anything those in front of us go after not even fulling knowing the rammifications of those actions until its to late. If you were paying attention you will notice that the "passification" of individuals with the virtual reality / neural network / matrix would open everyone up to good old fashioned "mind control"....

Well who will be the moral compass of the unconsious masses laying on a floating target for destruction in our delusional little world created by some mad man with good intentions who would hold the fate of humanity in the hairs of his Hitler mustache?

People cannot be trusted with power, pure and simple. Even when it is they whom are in power they will delude even their own minds into thinking that "their" way is the "right-way"...the human mind lies to its owners every single day. This is how we fall asleep at night or "imagine" these nice little futures of hope that you read about.

If you ask around your work place or even the neighbors on your street to see how many would be willing to put their minds in a box under a strangers control, who can change how you think at the touch of a button in exchange for living virtually forever....they will tell you just what I did...get F*****...

Before everyone gets exsited about these wonderful flights of fancey of the future they should first ask someone about "critical-mass" which even effects the human race. Look at the Aztecs, the Myans and the other 1000 cultures that outgrew their environments. If you want paradise on earth I can tell you a very simple way to do it that will never happen because humans are nothing but selfish little children undeserving of paradise....keep your pants zipped and lips shut.

People don't even know their own self and yet they think they know how to fix everyone else (yes I see the irony of what I just said since I'm the one giving the advice...) The world has to many people and to few resources. Deep in the back of our minds we know that critical mass is on the way....every animal can sense danger....my mind is full of red lights and claxxons.

Do you know how many people died in the last 10 years because they thought their way was the "right" way? Over 4 million just in 3 years in one country...all because someone was willing to fight for what they believed in...and now you want to "justify" to me why humanity deserves to live forever? "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.." What he proposes will do more than repeat it alright. Yes his words are enticing but perhaps you need to see past the flute he's swaying back in forth in front of you.

Good salesman? Yes....Good view of how things are? Delusional....Views of the future of humanity....I'd blow his ****** head off before I allow it to happen as would most of humanity. Hitler spewed a lot of nice words in the begining too, look how that turned out. During his reign of terror the world advanced more scientifically than in the last 10,000 years combined and people think thats a good thing....proof in itself that humanity should not be at the controls. We do enough damage in the pathetic 85 year life span we have now and less than 1% of all the people in the world actually contribute something that "enhances" human life.

Lets figure out ourselves and all of existance before we go trying to mess with it. If you don't understand that need or have the patience to wait then you obviously don't need to be at the controls either.

His views on half the things talked about are logical but at the same time not very well thought out. The SETI comments were painfully obvious and even talked about by SETI theirself so its not like he put much thought into that one other than to cloud it with huge words designed to impress the chic's. If your enchanted by his drivel then I'm happy for you, put your wool coat back on and blend back in with the masses. Sorry I thought you were an independant thinker.

Dev

_________________
"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

You got me on many points, Dev. I cannot really rebuttal any of them, or defend him against what you say. Hell, even I was downright offended by the SETI comments!

I would agree he did not think things out thoroughly, and did not factor in the mass disapproval of such technology, but at the same time, I think what he says is still very true, if not a bit delayed.

I have talked to many people about these ideas, and about 70% would be more than willing to go for it. 20% are religious, and 10% are afraid.

There is one point I would like to make, though: if done carefully, like the author hinted at (perhaps not enough), these technologies could be extremely beneficial to humanity, and it would not be an overnight transition from biological to mechanical anyway.

Maybe it was bad timing, but the night before I had watched a show on PBS (several years old, even, as they often are) about one of the very technologies he discusses. It was a show about a technology implanted in the skulls of individuals that was directly hot-wired to their brains which allowed def people to hear and blind people to see. Maybe I am just sappy, but I think if you asked the guy who saw his wife for the very first time if he thinks it is worth the risk, and I think he?d punch you.

It is technology like that which is going to slowly become part of everyday life. At first, it will be blind people seeing (which has already happened), then it will be nanobots curing cancer, artificial bodies for paralyzed people (this has happened too, in Japan, last year), and then better vision for those who would otherwise have glasses, then better hearing, then better immune systems, then maybe some kind of memory expansion for your brain, then maybe a secondary processor that does math equations quickly? well, you get the idea. It is going to be a million small things that add up to a whole? and those things WILL happen, for money, which is driven by big corporations.

_________________
Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

The minor stuff I don't mind at all, just like the hearing devices and the vision for the blind. A child of one of my co-workers has the hearing implants and they are great.

The part about copying the human mind into a computer....that I find disturbing for several reasons.

Nanotechnology has already came a long way but I dont see its future being in medicine but more in the semi-conductor area. IBM developed nanobots that bore through the wafers in predefined patterns, now if they can just get them to shit gold to fill it up they would be in business.

The human body can take care of itself if stimulated properly, you dont need foreign objects shoved up your ass or down your throat to make you feel better. Wavelengths of light cause accelerated cell regeneration, electrical stimulation and even the dreaded stim cell can do more than any nanobot could ever do. The human body is already programmed to repair any damage that occures, you simply need to give it the resources it needs to complete them.

Immortality is something I think the human race can do without for a while...one of us is enough.

Dev

_________________
"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

I guess when I read it, I was more or less thinking along the lines of what people are going to do to augment their bodies in the semi-near future. I really want a mechanical hard drive in my head that I can read/write to any data I want easily? and I see something like that being very possible and practical in the not-so-distant future. It would be even better if they did not put anything in your head, but figured out how to allow your mind to do that through some kind of energy-detection system (like they can already do, but with more precision).

Things I want to be able to have constant access to within my mind: huge hard drive, the internet, a very robust graphing calculator, a dictionary/encyclopedia, and solitaire.  Long story short, I want a home computer inside my mind, which I can use thousands of times faster than by typing or by clicking a mouse or by having my eye movements tracked, especially the math calculator and dictionary. I know they have those lame glasses-based desktops, but that is still? lame.

The tricky part, like you said, is making sure that the computer remains a utility and not something that can influence the way your mind works beyond giving you garbage data (in the event of a virus or something). The parts would also have to be easily upgradeable, in addition, though, so putting them in your skull would be lame?

For the rest of my body, I want mechanical muscles in my arms, legs, and back, which cannot be seen, even when I am naked. I also want them to be easy to turn off/over-ride. That way I can use them when I need them, and use my old-fashioned muscles (or lack thereof) when I do not.

I would also like a mental filter for my hearing, a built in alarm clock, reminder system, telephone, and a way to turn off/alter taste/smell. Throw in infrared and night vision for good measure? oh, and, of course, a calendar and a clock.

Hrm?

Well, I can think of plenty of things that I would love to have tied right into my mind for super-quick access. Like you say, though, it would have to be done in a way that can not send enough electricity through my mind to make me think in ways I did not intend.

_________________
Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

Solid State Flash Drive for me, Thanks.



-Ryandor

LOL!

So....if your brain catches a worm virus does that mean you will go around digging in your butt to get it out? Brings a whole new meaning to "Dump"......

If you think 12 year olds do a number on modern networks just imagine the damage they could do to a human with electronics in their head...

Personally I always did want to be like the assistant from "Cloud City" in Star Whores. Networked to every part of the city and able to control it all at the blink of an eye and without a word. For those who played Star Whores the Pen and Paper game you would like it even more because he worked off memstiks so if he needed to know how to do Quantum Physics he just loaded a new stick and *Poof!* instant master of Physics.

These are all fantastic ideas but personally I see the human race becoming to reliant on these "babbles" which in turn will actually slow or even stop the progression of the human evolution. If there is no need the human body will not adapt....

If we do not adapt and something happens down the line such as a huge solar flare that fries everyones computers and we are suddenly without our toys and lack the innate ability to take care of business...we're screwed.

While I love computers and all the toys I prefer to let mother nature take care of business to ensure the survival of the human race long after I'm done playing 20 games at the same time in my head over a VR network while channel surfing with the other eye mellon. Even going so far as not getting flu shots to tamper with my immune system.

It took me almost 10 years to get back what all those shots took away, now when I do get something it is gone quickly and doesnt make me as sick. This year was the first time in 4 years I caught the flu and it only lasted 4 days. With flu shots in the military it lasted 2-3 weeks and I felt like crap the whole time.

To see the degradation of the human intelligence from computers and calculators just go to McDonalds Lard shop when the power goes out and watch the kids try to count back change with no computer to tell them the numbers...thats just in 2 generations.

Dev

_________________
"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

... *looks at Ry* ... oh, now I see why you do that.

_________________
Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

As if mother nature cares about the survival of the human race If we want to survive as a race, we better do something (relatively) fast and spread out beyond this blue planet, before mother nature erases us with the help of gigantic astroids, huge solar flares, vulcanos covering our atmosphere with ash, tidal waves taking out our big cities, etc and so forth.

_________________
-= Ho Eyo He Hum =-

I think Dev?s point is that such a thing as that happening would not be such a bad thing.

The way I look at technology, though, is much along the lines of the way that paper stated it ? it is the latest form of evolution.

Elements -> chemistry -> life -> technology

After all, the whole ?survival of the fittest? theory put us at the top only because of our use of our ever-advancing technology. The problem, though, is that we do not use it to simply remain out of harm?s way, but abuse it into doing things it should not.

I think we can all agree on the idea that people just are not smart enough to use the kind of technology that has come out over the last 100 years and will pick up speed over the next 100. Only the creators can ever understand it, and often they are not even smart enough to see the implications of it and, for the most part, create it for the wrong reasons (greed).

At the same time, though, there is a very widespread movement towards removing the greed from the advancement and involve many views and as many understandings as possible ? open source. Open source is rarely developed for greed, and usually at worst for fame, which is only gained through providing something appreciated and understood by many (unlike greed, which can be satisfied by far more deceptive ways). Not only that, but its exposure exposes every weakness there is, and, as a result, they are patched up instead of remaining unnoticed (until some clever script kiddie gets bored enough to find it).

I think, if there will be any amount of safety to the newer technologies, it will be widespread understanding and complete exposure (instead of hiding) of the weaknesses so that they can be picked over by a lot more minds. Not that open source is always the best way to accomplish this (look at UOX, heh), but I think, in general, it is a great example.

Technology must be stripped from the money to advance healthfully. It will not happen, though, since money is the primary motivator behind its advancement, but it is nice to dream of a day when enough people ?wake up? and say no to greed in favor of common advancement.

_________________
Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

I think the real problem with technology is not with the technology or our inability to understand and use it properly, on second thought, though. I think the real problem is that we did not evolve with our technology enough ? as opposed to too much as you say will happen, Dev.

Greed, fame, brutality, power, hatred? all are things meant to keep us alive back when we had to exercise those things just to gain a modest amount of lead in order to reproduce more and live longer. Greed back then meant being full, greed today means owning your own island with a helicopter and a giant pool. Fame used to mean having a few friends you could trust and having enough enemies aware of your abilities to not attack, now it means having everyone in the world of any perceived consequence know your name or face. Brutality used to mean killing to get food, now it means going to the extent which society (and thus the law) allows (and I do not mean just physical). Power used to mean being stronger than the three other men in your tribe, now it means dictating orders to as many people as possible. Hatred used to give reason to kill the lion while it sleeps before it kills your children the next day, now it means plotting against an entire nation that might kill your entire people the next morning. All of these attributes are required, but technology allows us to extend our ability to satisfy them to such abnormal extremes that it is truly insane ? our desires for these things which have for the last million years of evolution guaranteed us the most surviving offspring are the very things which will someday result in the destruction of all life as we know it ? simply because they have no limit, and have never needed a limit until technology came knocking on our door.

Every frustrating, stupid, and annoying aspect of the society you want to unplug can be traced, in my opinion, to those limitless instincts that needed no limit before technology but are now exercised to extremely irrational levels. Even stupid people would not be annoying if it was not for their constant exercise of those instincts.

What we need is the additional logic to allow self-limiting of those attributes. That does not need to come from technology ? Tibetan monks have done it for many centuries. Everyone just needs to wake up and be self-aware? people needed to do this thousands of years ago.

_________________
Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

When you really think about it, though, it becomes clear that the motivational influences behind technological advancements are 95% irrational greed, power and fame (mostly greed). If you cut away those influences, then technology does not advance nearly as rapidly; thus technology does not exaggerate those influences further; not that there is an easily found and potentially successful method to cut away those tendencies or limit them, anyway, though. I am not even sure you would want to.

If you could limit them to the realm where they are actually needed to survive and prevent them from influencing individuals into going to extremes to satisfy them, then technology could be advanced much more cleanly and with far greater effect. Real issues, the kind that are not driven by greed or fame, could be faced head-on and dissolved in a relatively short period of time if it were not for the distractions of greed, power, fame and the other exaggerated instincts.

The economy is all about using greed and power to develop products that others see as a necessary expansion of their own greed and power. If people were educated enough and had enough self-control, they could exercise these instincts all they wanted in ways that are not massively detrimental to society, and then free the rest of their mind whenever they are not. I think a perfect example is games ? they are all about satisfying your instinctual desire for power/fame/greed in a safe and interesting way, but the self-control steps in when you have to set aside the game long enough to exercise, maintain your body and relationships, etc. and also in not exercising those same instincts while doing those things.

Living comfortably is something everyone on this planet should be able to do, but only when it does not cost another?s happiness and well-being to do so. I am a hypocrite, as most of society is, but I think it is never the less true.

My own irrational greed is always influencing my mind into plotting methods to get more money, nicer things, and my own island with a helicopter someday. Once I have all those things, I will want immortality so that I can spend the rest of eternity gathering every particle of existence under my sphere of influence, so that all of everything is mine alone. I will pack it into something the size of a marble, and still not be content since the limit of my greed will still not have been received, and thus I will implode, then explode, and do it all again. All because my brain has the self-preservation light, that reads ?low? on every want. Damn mechanic in the sky forgot to reset it?

_________________
Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

The tricky question is physics. If physics as we know it today are true (either quantum or string theory), then intelligence is impossibly nothing more than a seemingly complex reaction to an otherwise meaningless event, and therefore all of existence is also the same, and, that being true, higher intelligence would require acknowledgement of its own nonexistence. Long story short, if any form of physics we know about are true, then nothing has ever or will ever matter since it is predestined (or in the case of some versions of physics, injected by randomness every now and then), but neither predestination nor randomness allows for ?free will?.

Truthfully, I believe the above is true. I do not acknowledge my own nonexistence, because that would be downright self-destructive.

I cannot think a single thought that is not a reaction to input or a previous thought. The illusion of free will is just the result of the million+ variables my brain computes at any given second, giving seemingly un-reactionary responses upon demand (but then, the demand is reactionary, anyway).

Nobody in their right mind would want to believe any of this? I know I do not.

Sure, my ?soul? may be injecting ?free will? into my brain to carry out in physical form? but hell, physics aside, my soul still cannot muster a single un-reactionary thought. I can trace every thought down a very direct route that I know would have resulted in the same response no matter how many times you gave it the variables in the same state again.

Now, assuming it did give another response, which would mean it is random. Given the same variables and state, if more than one response is possible, it must be random. That is no better than it not being random, in my mind (heh).

The very definition of ?free will? is taking into consideration variables and producing a response given your thought?s reaction to those variables?

Free will, by definition, is something that is not free. You have no real choices ? the state of your mind is determined by prior events, and your choices are based on the state of your mind. Your free will is nothing more than filtering variables through a thought-process that does nothing but react based upon the input it is given and the state it is already in. The only part where there is any ?choice? involved is when more than one response bubble up as ?equal? reactions, in which case the choice is made randomly (if you use any intelligence to determine the choice made, then the choices can not be equal ? not that they ever are, anyway).

Both in terms of physics, and philosophically, everything is a direct and uncontrollable reaction (with random interjections, which, again, are uncontrollable anyway), extending all the way to God (if you believe in Him), and beyond.

It is like UO ? you can control your character, giving a meaningless ?physical? body ?free will? ? and your soul, in turn, could be controlling your body, giving it ?free will?, but, in the end, wherever the end may be, it is still a reactionary system.

Blech.

So none of this matters? I do not know why I posted this? I guess it doesn?t matter why!

_________________
Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

I guess what my conclusion from all of this is, is that we are blessed to be as smart as we are, but not any smarter. We are on the threshold of understanding our own intolerable unimportance, but stupid enough to forget about it quickly.

_________________
Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

Yes, you are just sappy
If I was the guy who saw his wife the first time, I would punch you for it (but then you haven't seen my wife).
Sorry, can't read through Syd's other 4 or 5 paras and barely made it through Dev's or anyone elses; I'm blind drunk right now.
It all sounds good in theory but the reality of it would be a nightmare.
Ever see that episode of The outer limits where everyone is hooked into this gigantic neural net except this one guy because he had a car accident and a virus starts killing people but it turns out to be the network itself?

Along the lines of our patent discussion, I just heard on the radio Sony (or maybe it was Sega) applied for a patent for the idea (the IDEA, not even a proof of concept or work in progress but the fucking idea) that a chip could be impanted in your brain to give you audio and visual and smell and what not from a streaming media source. Really brings a whole new dimension to porno doesn't it?

In short we are going to hell in a bucket. Would putting it on a hard drive make it any better? I doubt it. Unless I could play online games 24/7.

_________________
This space for rent.

Ahh I knew you were a free thinker Syd

The part about free will I think is a little off since that is what Zen practioners do. Empty the mind to find the inner truth about the outer world...no not the one we live in...

People are freer than they realize, that is part of the problem with society. We as a race are almost symbiotic in our relationships. Deluding ourselves on a daily basis into thinking that we need this or that in both the forms of material goods or emotional support from one another. Of course there is that warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from the sense of security we gain by huddling together in the darkness of our own minds...

We willingly trap ourselves...

Perhaps the Matrix that you wonder about is the one you're currently living in now, perhaps the test of life is to realize that this is not life at all. That all the things we cling too are in vain and in the end have no meaning. The people and the emotions are real just misdirected and place their values and faith in the wrong things instead of the important or meaningful stuff.

Here is what I think,

1. Nothing is without meaning.

2. People are never without importance or value to the universe or even to one another, simply because people do not understand what truly has value...

3. Humanity will see the big picture...eventually...even if they don't want too.

4. Material items in this life are nice toys but are actually meaningless and a mental "trap" to attach you to this world distracting you from the truth until its to late but since you never knew the truth you also do not realize that it is to late.

5. The truth is "out there" it's just not what you might think it is...

6. The truth cannot be simply told to someone since it is so simple that no one would believe you anyway.

Keep grinding those gears! Just squirt some oil on them once in a while!

Dev

_________________
"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

My gears came to a grinding halt when I remembered my earlier idea of only being reactionary. Clear your mind, and let the meaning of the universe come to you. Sure, that works, except that clearing your mind is obviously reactionary, and what comes to you is reactionary. It all boils down to something so blindly simple, that it means one thing: there is nothing more.

There is no you, there is no I, there is no Ryandor with his hand up his ass. There is no us, no love, no meaning. What is there? It all boils down to something so fucking simple that it is disgusting: nothing.

There is no separation between you, between I, between Ryandor?s hand, or even heaven and hell ? they are all connected, and even the worlds outside our comprehension are thusly connected to infinity. That is your singularity! If there is a God, there is no distinction between Him and us. If we are in The Matrix?, then there is nothing separating the robots, or ourselves? there is no robot, and there is no self.

There can be no more forever.

Physics is a way to see this ?nothing? and explain it with mathematics in nice, elegant, comprehensible form. Religion is a way of explaining this ?nothing? in a way that sounds plausible and gives a sense of worth and reason. Ryandor?s hand is a way of scratching this ?nothing? and pleasuring his ?nothing? when he is lonely.

So? that is what this existence is all about at the most basic fabric of reality; at the most infinitely intimate gear of the way things work and why. Back up to the world we live in, and forget the existence of this ?nothing? and go about your daily lives striving for personal well-being, whether that is gained through riches, fame, humility, virtuosity, or whatever else ?floats your boat?.

In summation: be at peace with yourself because you are all you see around you. Those you take from are you, those who give are you, and the ground you walk on is you.

_________________
Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

DAMN!!! You missed it by that much!....

Dev

_________________
"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

All we are is dust in the wind.

_________________
-= HellRazor =-
Shattered Sosaria is coming!
http://www.shatteredsosaria.com

There is no spoon.

_________________
-= Ho Eyo He Hum =-

dude... we are nothing but ants in a giant ant farm for some big ole alien kid sitting in his room right now. Lets just hope he doesnt tip us over and chase us with a magnifying glass.