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https://www.ryandor.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2730		 Page 3 of 3
Author:  Planet_Jeroen [ Mon May 01, 2006 10:02 am ]
Post subject: 
Sydius wrote:
I think too many MMO developers have played D&D.


Playing D&D and transforming it to a computergame for purposes of milking it differs from being a dungeon master in a mature and creative group and going from there. Not every good DM makes a good game developer either. And the other way around.
Author:  Sydius [ Mon May 01, 2006 10:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Planet_Jeroen wrote:
Playing D&D and transforming it to a computergame for purposes of milking it differs from being a dungeon master in a mature and creative group and going from there. Not every good DM makes a good game developer either. And the other way around.


I am tired of fantasy RPGs that incorporate stuff from D&D.
Author:  RoseThorn [ Mon May 01, 2006 1:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sydius wrote:
I am tired of fantasy RPGs that incorporate stuff from D&D.


*hides her uo shard*

So what about fantasy RPGs that incorporate stuff from home-made D&D ideas?
Author:  Xuri [ Mon May 01, 2006 2:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've never played D&D, so my shard will be a guaranteed hit. ;P
Author:  Sydius [ Mon May 01, 2006 3:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Xuri wrote:
I've never played D&D, so my shard will be a guaranteed hit. ;P


Yes, but you've played games with a lot of D&D concepts in them. We're all tainted.
Author:  Xuri [ Mon May 01, 2006 4:04 pm ]
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Sure, but I've never played anything but a Ranger in any of those games, so I have no idea how most stuff work. I still haven't got a clue how the strength and/or armor rating system in the Baldur's Gate/NWN games work, for instance.
Author:  Dev Viperrious [ Mon May 01, 2006 6:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
Actually unless the developer was a complete loser at DM'n pen a paper they make very good developers.

Its the personal interaction, they know what keeps players interested and how to keep them playing, again that's if their any good.

D&D is what 99% of fantasy games are based off of which in turn is a rip off of Middle Earth but those were not actually what I was refering too.

Personally I've played 29 different pen and paper games with groups numbering over 20-30 in someones house in an evening. When you can keep 20-30 people interested in a game for 5-6 hours even after finishing a half a keg of beer and 50lbs of BBQ ribs then you might have something going for you as a GM/Developer.

I was actually refering to "Story line", the key to any game be it pen and paper or on a computer. Most of the older computer games were "text" based and people loved them so much they never forgot them. Those were written by people who knew how to keep someones attention....thats my point.

A Developer must be a good story teller, to be a good story teller they need experience and imagination. To get the experience and imagination they need to read a lot and interact a lot for ideas. Which is what a "good" GM is "good" at.

Personally I like Sci-Fi over Fantasy anyday though there are a few Fantasy systems that still keep me interested even after all these years such as UO.

Dev
Author:  Sydius [ Tue May 02, 2006 8:37 am ]
Post subject: 
I hate a lot of D&D mechanics, though. Like levels, experience systems, and classes.
Author:  HellRazor [ Tue May 02, 2006 9:35 am ]
Post subject: 
Sydius wrote:
I hate a lot of D&D mechanics, though. Like levels, experience systems, and classes.


You won't like my shard much. :)

I like the D&D mechanics. They keep things in balance by recognizing that realistically you just can't be a master of EVERYTHING.

One of the things I disliked most about UO is that it lifted its basic character system from single-player Ultima, added "skills", and implemented an overly-flexible system that allowed the creation of "tank mages" and other "do it all" templates. It dumbed the game down to about 3 or 4 basic templates and made it impossible to compete in any given area without following suit. There were nothing but advantages and no disadvantages to the 3-4 templates.
Author:  Sydius [ Tue May 02, 2006 9:46 am ]
Post subject: 
The way that Ultima Online handles things is just one example of an infinite number of possible solutions, but I see fewer faults in it than I do in the classical D&D system of classes.

Which is more unrealistic, being a master at seven different disciplines of your choice and interest, or being master of one that was chosen for you at your birth without any possibility for change, irregardless of circumstances faced in life?

This really is not something worth debating, though. As I said, there are an infinite number of possible solutions. My point was that I think too many games use the D&D system, or systems very similar to it. I would rather see innovative ideas that fail than a million clones that never go anywhere.
Author:  RoseThorn [ Tue May 02, 2006 9:48 am ]
Post subject: 
I've never been a fan of a lot of the basic d&d rulesets. We used mana, not spell memorization, in our d&d sessions. It was kinda neat to play a computer game and see "mana" as a staple hehe. I didn't change or complain about experience and level systems when playing d&d cuz it never occured to me then that there could be better. I wouldn't use one or touch one with a ten foot pole now that I know otherwise.

Classes however, I do like. They aren't there to limit people, they're there to better define people. If you take the typical UO emulator shard every player will have gm magery, gm archery, gm <best/mostuseful craftskill>, gm tactics/parrying/anatomy/healing. They'll all be in heavy armor, best magical platemail they can snag, and they'll all have an assortment of swords and bows/crossbows. If the shard has a skillcap, they'll each have a mule character alchemist for making their potions and/or anything missing off the main. They'll all be able to play by themselves without the help of anyone else, if they wanted to.

With classes, you tell the mage he can have the powerful nukes, but he can't have the heavy armor, crossbow, and viking sword. Now the mage can't go tank a critter and hope to survive, so he enlistst he help of a random fighter in town that looks bored. Now the fighter has heavy armor and a viking sword, but he has no nukes, so while he can take a beating.. he can't really dish it out so well. The mage is a great match for them. They charge out into battle, get their butts handed to them, and think "jee, we need a healer". So they run back to town and fetch the bored looking cleric standing at the bank. Now the three go out and kick ass, because they rock. But wait, here's a treasure chest! And darn it's locked! Ok, let's take it back to town and find someone that can open it.. alas here's a thief! The thief lockpicks the chest for them, they all get mass riches, and they decide to keep the thief around because he's useful. Now their trio is four. See where I'm going here? I didn't make anyone's gameplay less fun, but I did turn a solo-played MMORPG into a well, multiplayer game. Some players might enjoy being able to tank, heal, nuke, and lockpick all by themselves, but if I wanted to do that I'd play a single player game.

Dev is right, it's all about the storyline. If you aren't creative, if you can't hold their attention, if you can't make them think "damn, I wonder how/what/when..." as they jump up out of the chair and run to the kitchen for another drink, then you're probably not a good game designer (and not a good DM/GM).

Our AD&D group was pretty small, around 5-6 people at the most at any given time, but I can't even say how many times after DM'ing and after we were done playing, I'd hear them walking out to their cars to go home and chat about what they could do to kill some specific npc, or how suprised they were at the way some trap went off or some npc behaved, or how unexpected that plot twist at the end was, or whatever.

It made me smile to know the game was at least good enough that they talked about it after they stopped playing it. You know, it's considered politically correct in most MMO's today to reply to anyone saying "get a life" with "i forget this game exists soon as I log off. i have a life. you go get one". I want a game good enough that I *don't* forget it exists soon as I log off. I wanna make a game good enough that the players don't either.
Author:  Sydius [ Tue May 02, 2006 10:17 am ]
Post subject: 
Using emulated Ultima Online servers as an example is even worse than using the official game. After the first two years or so, I never saw a single mage who had a single non-magery combat skill except wrestling, and never did I see them in platemail. Nor did I see a warrior casting high-level spells. Granted, both could heal.

One possible solution would be to bombard the player with skills, say, 200 of them, but keep the limit of 700 distributable points. Then you will see plenty of diversity, assuming you manage to make most of them useful. Just make what the players use as equipment and how they play affect their skills, like wearing platemail weakens magical abilities and casting magic doesn't work while wielding a Viking sword. As for mules, the same thing happens in class-based games -- so that is a different issue.
Author:  RoseThorn [ Tue May 02, 2006 10:21 am ]
Post subject: 
I have to use emulated servers as an example, because that's what we're all about here lol. Unless people make maps and shards now for EA? :)

My server will limit 1 char per account, so the mules won't be an issue.
Author:  Sydius [ Tue May 02, 2006 10:24 am ]
Post subject: 
RoseThorn wrote:
I have to use emulated servers as an example, because that's what we're all about here lol. Unless people make maps and shards now for EA? :)


No, you do not have to use emulated servers as an example, because we are talking about the design of emulated servers, not emulated servers themselves.
Author:  HellRazor [ Tue May 02, 2006 11:20 am ]
Post subject: 
Sydius wrote:
The way that Ultima Online handles things is just one example of an infinite number of possible solutions, but I see fewer faults in it than I do in the classical D&D system of classes.

Which is more unrealistic, being a master at seven different disciplines of your choice and interest, or being master of one that was chosen for you at your birth without any possibility for change, irregardless of circumstances faced in life?

This really is not something worth debating, though. As I said, there are an infinite number of possible solutions. My point was that I think too many games use the D&D system, or systems very similar to it. I would rather see innovative ideas that fail than a million clones that never go anywhere.


I'd be interested in hearing about ideas for ways to handle skills and professions. On one hand I want my players to have flexibility. On the other hand, I want to make skills valuable and unique, and encourage teamwork and parties.
Author:  Xuri [ Tue May 02, 2006 12:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
RoseThorn wrote:
I have to use emulated servers as an example, because that's what we're all about here lol. Unless people make maps and shards now for EA? :)

My server will limit 1 char per account, so the mules won't be an issue.

If the players want a mule, they'll manage to make one. Dynamic ips, proxies, different e-mails, sign up from a friend's IP, etc.

That's why, on my shard, people will have to prove that they're themselves by DNA-tests, birth-certificates, social security numbers, postage addresses, phone numbers and a handsigned & snailmailed (or show up with it in person) contract where they promise me the soul of both themselves and their first-born should they ever attempt to go around my 1 account per player, 1 char per account limit.
Author:  Planet_Jeroen [ Tue May 02, 2006 12:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Xuri wrote:
RoseThorn wrote:
I have to use emulated servers as an example, because that's what we're all about here lol. Unless people make maps and shards now for EA? :)

My server will limit 1 char per account, so the mules won't be an issue.

If the players want a mule, they'll manage to make one. Dynamic ips, proxies, different e-mails, sign up from a friend's IP, etc.

That's why, on my shard, people will have to prove that they're themselves by DNA-tests, birth-certificates, social security numbers, postage addresses, phone numbers and a handsigned & snailmailed (or show up with it in person) contract where they promise me the soul of both themselves and their first-born should they ever attempt to go around my 1 account per player, 1 char per account limit.


So tell me, how is to play solo on a shard ? ;)
Author:  HellRazor [ Tue May 02, 2006 1:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Xuri wrote:
RoseThorn wrote:
I have to use emulated servers as an example, because that's what we're all about here lol. Unless people make maps and shards now for EA? :)

My server will limit 1 char per account, so the mules won't be an issue.

If the players want a mule, they'll manage to make one. Dynamic ips, proxies, different e-mails, sign up from a friend's IP, etc.

That's why, on my shard, people will have to prove that they're themselves by DNA-tests, birth-certificates, social security numbers, postage addresses, phone numbers and a handsigned & snailmailed (or show up with it in person) contract where they promise me the soul of both themselves and their first-born should they ever attempt to go around my 1 account per player, 1 char per account limit.


I actually don't mind "mules". I have no problem with someone who creates a blacksmith because they want to be able to make and repair armor for their fighter. If you look at it, they still need to sacrifice to do that, in this case its sacrificing a character slot. And its not like they can actively play their "mule" at the very same time as one of their other characters.

The key thing for me is character diversity. I don't want a shard full of uber characters that can do everything, or a shard with 3 character templates that outmatch everything else, thus almost forcing players to choose one of them by proxy. I want characters that are limited enough in what they can do to have to rely on other characters who can do things they can not, and visa versa.

One cool thing about AD&D and its class system is that it made every type of character valuable to a group and thus cooler to play. That's some of what I'd like to try to bring into UO with my shard.
Author:  RoseThorn [ Tue May 02, 2006 3:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
Planet_Jeroen wrote:
So tell me, how is to play solo on a shard ? ;)


Heh, I dunno, I was one of the rare oddballs that refused to play unless I had friends around to play with :p

Quote:
If the players want a mule, they'll manage to make one. Dynamic ips, proxies, different e-mails, sign up from a friend's IP, etc.


Not if every account has to be admin created and player-base approved. I hate to steal concepts from other shards, but Sanctuary had a damn good one IMO. You get the starting playerbase, and any new player beyond that has to be approved by at least 'x' number of current players. Second accounts can be allowed (never a crafter option though) if that player can convince the other players he or she deserves a second account.. something that might not be easy if you consider all those other players didn't get a second.. so why would they wanna give you one?

Quote:
That's why, on my shard, people will have to prove that they're themselves by DNA-tests, birth-certificates, social security numbers, postage addresses, phone numbers and a handsigned & snailmailed (or show up with it in person) contract where they promise me the soul of both themselves and their first-born should they ever attempt to go around my 1 account per player, 1 char per account limit.


Amen! *changes account setup policy*

Quote:
I want characters that are limited enough in what they can do to have to rely on other characters who can do things they can not, and visa versa.

One cool thing about AD&D and its class system is that it made every type of character valuable to a group and thus cooler to play. That's some of what I'd like to try to bring into UO with my shard.


Amen! x2

We've all tried very hard to make every class a lot of fun and very useful. Each of our devs has picked some favored class to beef up and make cool, and it's ended up in making them all so cool that not a single one of us can decide WHAT to play (assuming we ever manage to get to play it in between never being finished/open, and gm'ing after we do get open).

When I started work on our shard, I knew exactly what I would be playing. Then the next class got a bit of flesh to it and I thought... that'd be cool too. Then the next, then the next... now I haven't a clue if I'd wanna play a sword swinging fighter, a mage, a priest of some sort, a thief, a bard... hell I want to play them all.
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