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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:39 pm 
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Master
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alright add 3 more active ppl on this forum :D

Hell Razor
Xuri
Sydius

YES!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:21 am 
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Me too! :D

(I know Ry's alive too, I saw him on ICQ not so long ago)

(P.S) Coldfire: Your website URL is dead :P


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:49 am 
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yeah i know i got my own website and domain bu it wouldnt pay to fix it now

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:16 am 
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When have I not been active on this forum? :P Well, other than 90% of the time, that is.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:01 am 
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Shocked...
Image

More:
http://www.runuo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78600

I think i will forever hate EA, all they do is push shitty games out early, or ruin good ones.

well spore will be the exception obviously.


Discuss....

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:27 am 
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Well, if EA decided to make the call to legally attack UO emulation, I think the first step would be to chat with the SWG guys.

SOE backed off with legal action against them, because they didnt actually do anything illegal. By using un-patented/registered packets without reverse engineering the client, it was found that the SWG guys actually did nothing wrong.

When the first SWG team started SOE found this and decided to buy the team out instead. However the second team, they tried again, but were declined in thier offer. Now SOE has just left them to thier business.

Same in the case of DAOC, the emulator is considered legal, however any client hacking/modifications or reverse engineering is considered illegal, and people who speak of that on the forum are banned, as a show of good faith to Mythic.

Even though Blizzard did kill off the WOW Emulators, perhaps that was somehow different to these other projects. I could possibly think that WoW Emulators somehow hack the client to connect, break encryption methods, or something like that. Which is possibly why they won.

Whereas in UO, although we do still decrypt the client for the majority of use, it is actually really simple to use the encryption as it stands, therefore not requiring the hack of the client, being that the login file is a simple text file, and requires no decryption at all to change.

They MAY get us somewhere else. In the upcoming KR they may change where the login is stored, or encrypt the file. They may also protect the client much better against us.

What may end up occuring is we stay back with the old client. If so, who really cares as long as we can still do what we want with UO, what would you rather, Having to not use KR, or having to not do UO Servers at all. I'd pick not having KR if it came down to it.

In that case, we just need to write our own clients, possibly redo our own animations from 3D models, so we can update the client ourself when they eventually discontinue it. Or hey, why not write our own client and overhaul it like EA did with KR, nothings stopping us really.

Thats my thoughts on the situation, if companies like SOE and Mythic intentionally let people do it, or give up legal action, then there something we can use against EA if push comes to shove.

I highly doubt like everyone else though, that anything substantial will come of this. And even so, they can't kill us all, and they can't kill private shards.

Its like, rather than how many midgets (PC: Vertically challenged people) does it take to screw in a lightbulb. But how many cease and desist orders does it take to kill UO emulation.

Answer, too many to count. It'd probably take all the money they have to get the ball rolling :P

Sure, they could target the most popular, and server software sites first, but in doing that, more would replace it by the time they were removed. And even then, they still have to take on everyone else. I wouldnt like to be the lawyers firm who'd have that job.

Thats my opinions on the matter, if the apocalypse comes, start researching the other emulated mmo's that has been left alone.

Hey, lets hope they just target the big EA clones like UO:Gamers and leave us customisers/modders alone :P


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:04 am 
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It is true that it may be unlikely, but we do not have enough information to know that it is unlikely. We can only assume given what we do know, which is a history of inaction.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:53 am 
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I know that Blizzard has won lawsuits over issues involving simulation (?) of their Battlenet servers. Not sure how WOW interacts with those but that could be one difference between WOW vs. other emulators.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:52 pm 
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An interesting post claims that UO servers are legal, providing they do not distribute the client (Which is an interesting fact in itself, because EA allowed the distribution to download sites)

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061120-8258.html


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:54 pm 
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It didn't claim that. They just said that they generally aren't gone after.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:35 pm 
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"Not all privately-run game servers are necessarily illegal nor have they warranted FBI investigation."

That to me leans toward the "not all UO servers are illegal" statement.

And after what I've read about SWG, DAOC, and other emulators that have gotten away with it. Depending on WHAT you do with the emulator/client and/or how you get the data information defines whether it is illegal or not.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:37 pm 
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That's flawed logic we've already gone over.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:55 am 
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If it's such flawed logic, then why did Mythic and SOE both back off legal action and attempt to buy them out.

There are certain points when emulating a server that lead to it becoming illegal. One is modifying the client, one is changing/altering/removing encryption, another is using a copywritten name.

But as far as I am aware and read, it is not illegal to receive and respond to un-patented/registered packets providing you did not reverse engineer the client to obtain them (Which we do not, we packet sniff).

If this were true, then perhaps EA would be sueing Garriot, because he probably used similar data/packet structures in the game he's working on.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:22 am 
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See:

http://www.eff.org/IP/Emulation/Blizzard_v_bnetd/

They used packet-sniffing just like we did, and did not need to disassemble the clients, either. They did everything the same way the UO emulation community did.

So, yes, it is flawed logic to reason that just because something has not yet happened that it cannot or will not happen. I fully believe it is purely out of EA's unwillingness to bother that nothing has happened yet. It is true that they may never be willing to bother. That, however, is up to them, and is mostly unpredictable.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:21 am 
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If they make it "iilegal" I guess I'll just need to become a criminal.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:30 pm 
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I don't know of anybody who doesn't break a few laws here and there. Usually on a daily basis.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:11 pm 
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Some laws were just meant to be broken. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:05 pm 
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HellRazor wrote:
Some laws were just meant to be broken. :)


Seconded

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:23 pm 
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Herein lies the difference. The statement from Eff's site.

"BnetD was an open source program that let gamers play popular Blizzard titles like Warcraft with other gamers on servers that don't belong to Blizzard's Battle.net service. Blizzard argued that the programmers who wrote BnetD violated the DMCA's anti-circumvention provisions and that the programmers also violated several parts of Blizzard's EULA, including a section on reverse engineering."

BnetD was NOT an MMO emulator, it was replicating on online service that Blizzard had probably already patented/registered, We're not talking about on online service, we're talking about MMO emulation, which is a whole new ballpark.

Two, Blizzard argued that the programmers violated the DMCA, meaning that they circumvented the encryption to do so. UO Servers can and should be run without removing the encryption, In that situation, what is being violated then?

As for EULA violation, the best EA could do is ban people from the service, thats all they ever had in there. Perhaps if they tightened the EULA up, then they would have more of a chance.

Also note that very old UO clients did NOT have you accept a EULA at all until you actually signed up with your OSI account.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:44 pm 
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You must circumvent the encryption or else the packet data is useless, therefore, that encryption must be decrypted (at least on the server side). Decryption is one form of reverse-engineering, and could also be argued as being a method for circumvention which violates the DMCA, besides packet-sniffing which is another method of reverse-engineering network traffic.

Not only that, but most of the UO data files were also reverse-engineered so that the server could, for example, do collision detection on the map.

The Battle.net was not patented. This was not a patent case.

The EULA applies to using the client, not to connecting to their servers with the client. When you buy UO, you are not buying the software, you are buying a licence to use that software -- a licence that becomes void if you break the EULA.

Yes, it is true that very old UO clients did not have you accept a EULA at all until you signed up with your OSI account.

Now, that said, the EULA may not be enforceable. The reverse-engineering was done before the DMCA existed. It is possible to install and use the UO client without accepting any EULA. So, in the end, it is much muddier situation for EA than it was for Blizzard.

Does that make it legal, though? No. It means you can probably get away with it, just like you can probably get away with going 5 miles over the speed limit on your way home from work today.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:46 pm 
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Also, Blizzard has shut down WoW servers.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:12 pm 
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I have done packet sniffing on OSI before and did not need to unencrypt the data to see what was going on, This was using a 5.x.x client.

"The EULA applies to using the client, not to connecting to their servers with the client. When you buy UO, you are not buying the software, you are buying a licence to use that software -- a licence that becomes void if you break the EULA."

That is an iffy one though. Take Half-Life 2 for example. If you are banned from Steam, you cannot play games online (Say, because you broke the EULA/TOS). But you can still play that game offline, because you paid for the software, and have a right to do that.

Now, even though UO is a multiplayer game, being banned from OSI or breaking the TOS/EULA does not mean you cannot play it offline, only online. However in saying that you cannot play UO offline.

But think of an example, a user got banned from OSI for swearing, Nowhere in the EULA did it say he couldnt do that. Now his licence is still valid (By your theory) yet he cannot play online, Where does that leave him?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:40 pm 
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This could go back and forth forever. Think what you want; it probably won't matter, anyway.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:43 pm 
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I refuse to think what I want. I'll follow popular opinion!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:30 pm 
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I hope UO:Kingdom Reborn will help Ultima Online and not bury it for good =/

you all must feel it, one bad more after another on the part of EA...how many bad moves does it take to kill UO?

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