Ryandor.com

Hi Folks,

I had posted this earlier, but Ry did a restore when he changed hosts and threw it into oblivion.

I just wanted to get feedback/ideas and have discussion on what could potentially be the biggest UO World ever (Possibly even more expansive than any other MMO).

The idea being, to completely redevelop UO into something different. Also adding elements of realism, and expanding much much more on everything. Taking the game deeper than ever before, I'll throw a few examples.

First Example, more Advanced AI. What if the guards actually had proper posts, and were tied to that specific town. What if guards upheld the law more strictly in say, central cities (Hey You, Put that weapon away before I arrest you). What about patrolling around the Wilderness, or even patrolling in groups. And how about no "Psychic Guards", Guards actually have to be in range of a screaming person, or someone has to run and tell them (Hey, doesnt have to be the NPC you just stabbed in the back that dobs you in, it could be his friend nearby who runs). Getting my drift?

What about NPC's having full schedules, and actually going home after work, taking time out to eat, or even crafting new items for thier shop (Why do the items just have to "appear", someone should put them there in the first place). Alternativly carts could be created and NPC's could actually travel between towns on carts taking stock back and forth. Players could be asked to escort a cart, take one themselves, or just even hitch a ride. Hey, for all those evil folk, you could rob the cart instead, or possibly even have to fight a player who was escorting it. (The map would be designed with proper roads for this to work well).

Then again, hey, NPC's would be smarter right, who's to say you attack the cart this time, that the next time he runs the cart he doesnt hire some mercenaries to defend himself. Or take a couple of the county guard with him.

Ok, so thats AI, what about other aspects, like Crafting. Why does crafting have to be as simple as Attain Skill, Attain Resources, Craft Item. What about having to create sub-items before creating the final item. (Eg, x'' Blade & Tang, Wooden Handle, Leather Strip = Long Sword). Having quality on the pieces themselves (Eg, a Sword could have an excellent handle, but terrible blade, making the damage worse, but chance to hit better), (Also make it take some time to forge the items, rather than being instantaneous, but make it worth the effort). Also having to learn HOW to make the item first, perhaps via training, reading, or other methods.

Or with Alchemy, creating a completely dynamic system where you can create completely customised potions. Ingredients have certain effects, and can be prepared in various ways changing the effect or altering it. Then when putting prepared ingredients into the bottle (Filled with a bit of water, or perhaps another liquid or potion) you can choose how much to put into the bottle, and what ones, some ingredients will like each other, others might not and create a dud. Others might make extremely unstable potions (Could be great for blowing up that unsuspecting enemy). And also who's to say alchemy is limited to drinkable potions, what about poisons that work by the touch (Powders or liquids), or other useful items like lantern oils/flamable liquids, dyes, and others (Hey, why fill your lantern with oil, create a trap by filling it with explosives. Or even better, poisons that when lit turn into a gas and surround the area).

What about other aspects, say the towns themselves. What if all of the towns were built via Multis (Or possibly even use the Custom Housing protocol for it, as thats well compressed and server-side). And a player could completely build a town from scratch (Perhaps all towns are like this). A player could also place walls down, gatehouses, towers, a military barracks, even his own stronghold. Think of AOE or Stronghold making its way into UO for those type of players.

So far we're thinking of something like a cross between AOE, Stronghold, Fable, Oblivion, Neverwinter Nights/D&D and various other games. Making one huge world that runs itself, rather than the players running it. Obviously players can contribute and change things greatly in the world, if they attacked that cart carrying weapons and armour to town, the shops won't get stocked, and if the guards weapons get broken or damaged, they might not be able to get replacements making the town's defence weaker. However a player craftsman could step in, and supply the town, being that supply is in good demand, he could stand to make some good cash.

So far you'll be thinking of heaps of different tactics now like I am, Hey, we weaken the town then take it over. Or perhaps by weakening the town in order for yourself to make some cash (An Evil Person), You put the town prone to attack, and a horde of orcs just happen to attack that day. If the orcs win because of the lack of defence, they gain the town until it is taken back.

So, if you have any idea's, feedback, thought's, issues, or just general discussion I am very willing to hear it.

Also on the side, I was thinking of building a UO server that provided Email Accounts to players, starting at say, 100MB and over time possibly raising up to 1GB. You'd get POP3 and Webmail access (Possibly even more).

My wonder is, would players use this, or would you use this? or would it be a waste (You could always opt out, so Email would only be given to players who wanted it, but the system would be automated so you wouldnt have to specifically ask for it, just tick a box).

Well the guard AI your talking about was done when the game first came out in 97. All NPC's in the game had a huge vocabulary and sometimes it would take a couple minutes for people to figure out they were not other players messing with them.

RUNUO forums has some highly customized crafts like your talking about and I along with several others discussed the idea of a shard using that type of system around a year or so ago. UO is loved for its simplicity though and getting to annoying with the crafting or skills will more than likely kill it rather than make it better. Crafting in EQ which works like that sucks...

There is a script system availible in RUNUO and Sphere as well that has NPC's who go home to sleep then get up in the morning and go to work. That has been around for a very long time actually, before 2000 even.

UOX used to have something for getting NPC's to travel in groups along scripted paths I think which is what your looking for on the patrolling guards and can be used for merchants traveling between cities as well.

They are all great ideas and most already exist in one form or the other in various EMU's but no one has yet to date combined them into one single shard and shared it with the world. To attempt so would require as much work as writing the EMU software itself.

Were you implying that you would share this with the community?

Dev

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

Oh ok, I never played in '97 so I wouldnt have a clue what it was like sorry :P. But the idea being that NPC's would become far more lifelike, and actually take on day-to-day activities.

I'm not just thinking about going home after work and such, Im also thinking of NPC's having more complex player-like tasks. For example, an Adventurer type NPC (Much like a player) might travel to a dungeon, and haul loot home. He'll purchase new armor and weapons if he needs them, or if appropriate he may craft his own.

A Thief type NPC may hang around town and pickpocket people, or rob houses when they leave for work, he may case a house first to see how the occupants timetable works then move in. Who's to say you might also see him in jail sometime if the guards catch him.

What I mentioned above we're merely simple examples and just a few things on the tip of the iceberg so to speak. My vision as such, is a completely self-functioning virtual world that the NPC's create, run, and also destroy.



Yes, this is true, however in terms of a roleplaying server a little extra effort usually isn't cared about much. Especially if the end result is much more extensive than a simpler version.

Sometimes to get the more advanced systems, more flexibility, we must give up some simplicity. It would need to be balanced to make it so that each craft had an equal amount of "advanced-ness" vs "simplicity" so that it was balanced. But also balanced so that it doesnt travel too far over one line (Starting to become too simple, or starting to become too clumsy).

If you've ever played Shinobido and done the alchemy, that can be quite simple (If you just want to quickly make a specific potion), or it can become very complex (Where you actually prepare the ingredients before using them, and after you may also change the potion mix itself somehow which takes time [Eg, Boil the potion for a day]).

So it could be designed in such a way, that the simple blacksmith could be quick about his crafting, and that the advanced blacksmith could be more thorough in his preparation. Those who want better things would take the time out to make them.



I've seen many systems and such on my travels from place to place, and you are right, most of them have been done in one way or another, but not put together.

But then again, most of these have been designed around Ultima itself specifically, we're talking about something completely unique and new (Say, creating Oblivion in UO instead, the graphics are obviously UO [But I have some ideas on that] but the entire game and such is totally different to anything UO was).

I mean, an entire "rebrand" branches into every single area of the game. From combat, to crafting, to law and order, to the AI, to housing, right back to even the UI and movement itself.

Are you starting to get an idea at what I'm getting at now.

And as for the last question, I'm not sure. There are two sides to the coin. If you release it all publically for everyone (Like say TDS Shard) then everyone will run thier own copy with minor modifications (Pretty much like all OSI Clones) and over-saturate the shard lists. This makes your unique idea and hard work pretty much worthless.

However if you don't release it, then you may feel selfish or be labled as such, and everyone boycotts your wonderful creation (Again, making it worthless). There may also be attacks from other shards and/or emulators on your credibility (I've seen many closed source shards/emulators [Non-UO] being attacked for supposedly "stealing"). On the bright side, at least its still unique.

Im with you on it all, Bmzx007. I actually have a good Guard AI I was developing last year. Guards could be assigned a guard 'post' where they would stand guard, unless their attention was needed elsewhere.. they had adjustable ranges they could persue within, outside the range, they would fall back.. properly staged, theres always another guard within a close range of where that guard had to fall back at. (this kept players from being able to 'herd' all the guards to one area, leaving areas vulnrable, and unprotected) Guards used combat, obviously using top notch wepons, and such.. and were killable.

Other things mentioned I have either done similarly, partialy, or had the idea to do. Rewrite of the craft system, skill system etc..

Too many things for any one person to do single handedly, or even a couple people, really. I had to face the facts last year, and put it all back in the archive vault.. just not enough time, and not enough help.

Im with you though, if you are mentioning this stuff with intentions on feeling out the community here for potential partners, that is. Id love to put time/devotion to one of those systems again, especially if there was another person or two that could script/code as well, on other areas.. and be able to actually code fair-decently, at the least.

With that new 3D client EA is suppose to be releasing this upcoming year, I have a small amount of hope that it will be good enough to bring back some new excitement.. bla bla.

lemme know what your intentions are, and where your going with all these ideas. I do have another partner that is a programmer (fluent C++ and near fluent C# to start) that I know would join right along as well.

*edit, note*

As to what Dev was saying on a lot of these systems found at the RunUO site.. sure, thats true somewhat. But lets be real about custom scripts on RunUO. 1. they are almost always garunteed incomplete, and buggy because of, when the system is larger than a single wepon item. 2.They are nearly always garunteed to only partially be what you would want for your custom script. (has a lot of what you might have done, but a bunch of extra crap that ruins it, etc)

my 2 cents there, full offence Dev.
er, I mean No offence, Dev

_________________
Forget what you know, know what you forget.

*Gives Dian a wet willy!*

None taken!

Dev

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

Yes, it looks quite good, and from what I understand looking at the screenshots and reading the FAQ, it should be reasonably compatible with our current emulators.

The question it raises though, is it still as flexible as the standard clients (And hopefully is it more flexible).

Most of that has been done either in EA's UO or in the single-player Ultima games. Granted, they abandoned most of it. I believe the AI was dumbed down to save on CPU cycles, the custom alchemy thing was both confusing and rife with balance issues/bugs, people were too sissy to cope with realistic guards, and having a realistic supply/demand market with a fixed amount of value in the world broke when too much of that value was allocated to items nobody wanted but had to create to advance in crafting.

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Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

Done or not done, I think Bmzx007 has a different look on it, and if so its the same as I do. That is, the people that sniveled and cried a river because they had to actually make the handle of the sword, the swords blade, and other stuff to have a finished product.. are exactly the 'type' of players that (imo) cause the most grief to other players, and shard staff.

The real players, that want to be there to enjoy the game.. work together with other players.. just down right honest game play will appreciate everything about these ideas mentioned. Those are the players that give the shard life and a healthy, stable future.

But, that's just my opinion.

_________________
Forget what you know, know what you forget.

While I agree with Dian that all the above are great features it would require a lot more work than most shard owners are willing to do and longer to do than most players are willing to wait.

Most "Good" players already have homes on other shards and far to much time and energy invested to throw everything away to start over from scratch on a shard that may go *POOF!* tomorrow.

Tragena shard had a lot of these features and a very nice map, but when was the last time anyone played on it? The sad fact is that even with a team of people working on a project like that the average shard owner not only gets so burned out but by the time their done they don't even want to look at UO without throwing up. Tragena would have been very close to the ideal shard in my mind.

Personally I would just open the shard under the normal system and make small changes over a long period of time. If you wait to finish the whole system then it will most likely die off before it's completed like most of the other highly customized shards that have been talked about in these forums. 99% of which do not exist or never went live.

The AI system in itself would require such a rewrite that it could keep people busy for a very long time indeed. Not many people are willing to invest that kind of time in something they do for a couple hours a day.

Dev

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

It all depends on a couple of factors I beleive.

For instance, my passion is programming, I don't have any kids or dependants, and I am currently not working and have plenty of time (Even when I am working I have plenty of time). I've played UO for two years straight and never got bored, up until the point where I had "visioned" what I wanted out of a UO server, then nothing could fill that gap :P.

There are also other factors for some people, hosting costs, server costs/provisioning, the development skill/planning skills (Something that large needs to be planned reasonably well, which I'll explain why shortly).

I've talked to Rose on a couple of occasions, and although she "liked" UO, she was easily temped and turned to the dark side (WoW, L2, etc). In my case, I've looked, played and didnt actually like them.

She has a kid to look after which will consume alot of her "free time". Obviously people don't like and breathe UO, but kids take alot of time (Older ones like myself, not so much :P).

Also without a decent plan, or guide in place as to what is going to be done, what isnt, and some sort of structure to it, you can end up going round in circles, which is what Tragena did many times.

I talked to Rose about it a couple of times before, the one big issue they had was the constant re-writes of systems that were already done. Couple of reasons for this.

1) They never planned what they actually wanted, whenever the requirements changed, they usually had to redo some or all of the particular system (Scope Creep).

2) They switched between Sphere versions many many times, this also cost them lots of rewrites (Especially in the 99 versions). I remember her saying how often they had to redo things because Menace broke or changed something (Sometimes changed things that were completely unneccesary).

3) Constant turnover of staff. Although a couple of them stayed constant, a couple of guys that scripted when they felt like it, would come in and rewrite something just to get it working better, or how they would have liked it to work.

I agree with alot of what you say though Dev, these things are common. The majority of people who do set out of this type of project do usually end up failing or giving up.

In regards to players, if you can offer them something absolutely amazing over what they are currently playing, they will give it a go usually. And if they like it, they'll stay (Some people will even play both).

For me this project would mean a couple of things. It would be realising a vision that has been in my head for a long time. It would be skill-building and learning about technologies (Building an enterprise/commercial MMO-grade back-end infrastructure, etc). And also having a project that I could potentially show to employers (Like a Graphic Designer's portfolio). Here its about two things, Qualifications and Experience, However if you can show that you have the skills and have utilised them in something significant, they'll usually overlook the experience part.

And yeah, Most shard owners wouldnt go through the effort. But then again, I'd consider myself being part of the OSI-clone hating minority in the UO emulation world :P

If your passion is programming, buid your own server (emu) to host it, an do what you want!

Oh, no, I fully agree. You do know I hate EA, right? Mostly because they dropped the ball on those things. Vanguard will have most of it, though, and more, so I'm happy again.

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Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

Right on punt.