Ryandor.com

There are some interesting statements in the terms of service on Orbsydia. Some I do not believe to be enforcable, as they conflict with other items. But they may be telling about motive:


No issue here, but some it depends on a license one is choosen. For instance, if one uses GPL, and then later changes it (one can do that), it doesn't affect the ones that have all ready been released as GPL (stated in the license).


This I think was aimed at me, and the fact MapGenerater 1 used UOL data. But I believe this states, that distrubtion can't happen. Not sure.


This is interesting, for it doesn't restrict to Orbsydia training. So this says, you cant write your own trainign, and post where you want. I believe this to in disagreement with other basic laws here in the States at least. I can write my own "how-to" book, and put it anywhere I want. So as written, it is very broad, and not restrictive to just material Orb produces.



Ok, this I find interesting. HellRazor, are you reading this one?
1. One can put their tools on other sites. Ok, agree within license (again, say they release on GPL, then I can, the license says I could). But the second part, states on can't make it interopeatble by reading their formats without their permission. I KNOW that in the USA, for interoperatbliy, one can reverse engineer. So I dont believe this will stand a court case in the US, but who knows. But if one wanted to abide by it, the user should understand, ORB decdes the interoperability of other tools with them! If I was a user, I would think about supporting tools that wanted to impose that, but again, that is just me.


Does it become the excluisve properlty, and does the orignal owner lose all rights to it? For instance, if one submits something, does Orb now control (given the other terms) if others can read or use that data? Or is this just stating they now have the right, but the original owners right and control for others are still perserved.


As a user, I would be concern. These , appear to express the desire at least, to control formats and who can read them, as well as dictating what can work with what they generate, should be considered very seriously as something one really wants to support.

At a minimum, I would offer, they should be clarified.

errrm.. so I would have to ask thier permission to use say.. UO Architect with the Ultima Online client.. wouldnt the Ultima client be concidered a 3rd party tool, when assuming ORB tools are concidered as thier own, (lol) companies set of software?
fuck those guys.

Yeah, i know thats not really the case, but still I have to agree with punts points, and even beyond those. The door that was opened from when payed 'subscriptions' to that stupid site, just got pushed open farther, in my book.

They can have thier make-believe glory, and think of themselves as some god to the Ultima Online community..

not.

_________________
Forget what you know, know what you forget.

My staff and myself have created one kick-ass shard, with custom everything, without the help of any training, tool, or person affiliated with that website. Ever.

Who the hell do they think they are to start writing crap like that? I can understand it if you're a profiting company selling software to put up a TOS like that, but a game emulator 3rd party tool website? Come on, they need to be reminded of what they're creating over there, cuz obviously they believe it to be something far more important.

It's just insanity, the whole damn world's gone mad, Ryandor.com is the only safe (sane) haven.

Well, I wouldn't go to that extreme intepreation. The UO format I don't think they are claiming is theres, so I dont think that is intended to be addressed.

But for instance, if I wanted to read UOA files, this says I have to ask first. again, one can claim anything one wants, but I dont think that would be defendable in court. In this case, the right to reverse engineer is well established. In fact, it is one fo the few exceptions for cricumventing encryption/protection in the dreadful DCMA, for reverse engineering for inteperatality.

The ability to control where I put works I create (such as my written documents) is also fairly well established. But I dont disagree it never hurts to make any claim on wants, and hope the courts agree in the fact "one agreed".

I just think as a user, one has to ask, is supporting orgainziation that have this approach, really in the user's best interst? I no of no instance where a company has successfully demonstrated that controlling the formats was in the users best interst (versus in their own best interst at the expense of the user in terms of choice and interoperablity).


But before anyone jumps, that is why is I stated, at a minimu, I think a clarificaiton should be requested. As I dont have access to forums anymore if I am logged in, I cant post there. Not a big deal, as I am not a user anyway.

The question in my mind is thus: Have the programs (UOL, etc) that have used the file format that you are now using (either as a main format or as an export/import format in any of your programs) ever been GPL?

If so, then you are ok, provided you give source.
If not, you don't even need to worry about it.

Honestly, I've not been to Orb in ages, so I can't tell intentions or read between the lines, but it does appear there is something going on.

While I can't think of a good example, it looks like they are trying to "lock in" a customer base for a particular resource. Unfortunately, they really don't have the power, money or respect to do such a thing. When big companies do this type of thing, there is generally a backlack from customers, but eventually it dies down as there is usually lawyers to prevent other companies from using the resources. I don't really see that happening in this case.

-Ryandor

The rules do seem awfully restrictive... however, I'd like to point out that while you all may just see OrBSydia as one website, Khaybel sees it as one of many projects, including PixelFX Studios, which does make real money doing web design work.

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To my knowledge, no, nothing Orb has evey done been released under GPL. Just used that as an example for one of their terms and how it depends on a license used (not to indicate that GPL has been used).

Regardless, I don't think they can successfully defend restricting others reading/writing formats, despite whatever terms they want. I remember SPHERE use to claim copyright on their format of their scripts, and when pressed about what they felt they could copyright (the fact they used [], etc), I never got real good answers. Westy did state that yea, the format wasn't (despite the claim they put in every script).

Anyway, I find it interesting. Khaybel had posted that all should read and understand. The only reason I put it up, was based on that. Reading it, makes me at least , wonder.

If you break their terms of service, then they can stop providing the service to you. That is all.

You can patent algorithms for reading file formats (unfortunately) but not the file formats themselves. They would have to file for a patent for the algorithm.

You cannot copyright formats of anything -- only finished works.

_________________
Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

All this talk about it, makes me want to just go all out, and start a website, cloning Orbsydia as close as I can, with hosting thier download files as my own, rofl. and see what they think they can do to me

_________________
Forget what you know, know what you forget.

Quite true. What I always find interesting, is when one expects others to follow their TOS, yet don't follow others. For instance, I am aware were Orb members have stated, they have accounts on UO. Yet, they also play on freeshards. This is a violation of the UO TOS. So, apparently one doesn't have to follow others TOS, but expect their own to be followed.

People still go there?

Of course I guess most look at it like the Jerry Springer show...you know its all fake but its still entertaining to watch people make an ass out of theirself for money...

Nothing they have written (at least in these forums because I am not going to Orbysidia for anything) is enforcible by law. As pointed out by Punt, you cannot expect others to follow the rules when the entire site is based off stealing anothers work, Sphere and RUNUO all over again *YAWN!*

Dev

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

It just irks me because once upon a time the entire UO free community was started in the spirit of sharing and creating, and that spirit has been smashed, crushed, bludgeoned, and butchered with so many people on ego-trips.

It's like, people would rather see work stop, or slow, or go backwards than they would to see someone else working on it without their precious name and credits attached.

Mifune, you're doing a wonderful thing at Shardwire, hosting people's patch files for free. That's what it's all about. Ryandor and staff here are doing a great thing, offering *friendly* advice and tutorials and downloads for server customization. It's really nice the whole free "COMMUNITY" aspect hasn't been copywrited and legalized away from everything UO related at least.

Asside from the fact that you cannot download the current versions(closed because of problems just like this).. Why are you trolling the forums and crap? Do you get a rise out of rallying people against others your mad at? Khaybel has provided us with wonderful programs. He put those rules in there because of people like you who try and exploit or use legal loopholes. If you would just for once stop fing with other peoples work, and maybe NOT use someone elses source(just because you can access it) for your own programs, maybe there would be no issue what so ever.

Companies have rediculous clauses and rules because others use their work and in an attempt to correct the problem, overcorrect the rules in an attempt to get you to stop. You took advantage of the programs Orbsydia released, now are poking at them and complaining that they are the ones being retarded..

I sure as hell hope you dont/or ever will work for a software company, because someday I'm sure you'd end up behind bars for over a decade.

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no Frostleaf, punt was merely saying he wanted some of the changes clarified. The people (myself included) firing off about it don't even use the programs, let alone create programs to match them or from them.

I've never been to those forums, at least not in the past ~4 years. I certainly don't troll them. I don't get a rise at rallying people, and punt's pretty mild-mannered and has stated multiple times in this post that he wants things clarified.

What's being exploited, and what legal loopholes are being abused?

Do YOU think programs being unfinished, incomplete, less than they should/could be, and/or undownloadable as being useful? Don't you think, considering they're designed for use on emulators which are already 'stealing' from Electronic Arts, that they should be free to use, download, and improve upon? I sure do.

Actually "Rob" hasn't provided "ANYTHING", it was all done by people working on their own and contributing it to the community "thru Rob's Website"...

As far as rallying people thats a bit far fetched since most of us have known Rob for much longer than you have been around so we know "exactly" what he's all about and do not need anyone to rally us for anything...

This is a simple discussion on why Orbsydia would go to such absurd lengths and make up even more absurd rules that it, itself is unable or unwilling to follow.

As far as Punt being the problem, your way off base and may want to redirect your fire since he stole nothing and performed a service by providing a "supplimental" program that assist UOL. The program was developed and written 100% from scratch by him...."Rob" is the one who went off the deep end and took the site down and then later claimed it was a mechanical failure and removed his original post regarding the software.

People who lie to those who place their faith in them do not hold much weight with me personally but its his site and he can do as he pleases.

Rosethorn is right, it is very sad that people who have stolen the works of OSI/EA Games would go to such lengths to prevent the community from prospering in a vain attempt to maintain their imaginary death grip on everything that happens in our community.

UO EMU's were founded as a hobby, not a business. The knowledge of what each group discovered was shared freely in the begining and a true revolution occured in a very short period of time that allowed us to evolve to this point. If it had not been for those people who gave freely Sphere, RUNUO and all the others would not even most likely exist.

The question you need to ask yourself and Rob after you run back to him is "why?". Why does Rob feel the need to control anything and everything and be such an over dramatized actor about the littlest thing? So what, someone made a program that "helped" the community. The original software was still created by its original developer and nothing had changed other than the community advanced another step and yet Rob wants everyone to think this was a horrible act...wake up...

To recap:

Yes this post should have never been placed here since it can be construed as inflamitory by those who do not know the whole truth of what transpired behind the story currently being told by other parties.

No Punt did not steal anything....despite the stories being told by anyone.

Yes Punt did allow his software to be read by the UOL format (which is not copywritable in any known country in the universe despite the fact that the format it uses to read the UO files was it self stolen from UO's original designers)

Yes there has been a lot of senseless finger pointing and name calling over something actually very trivial and pointless.

Yes Rob did throw a tantrum and take the entire site down to gain sympathy from the people who are faithful attendants of his site just as he has done many times in the past over other slights.

Yes Punt deserves a wet willy for posting this here but as it originally was, it is once again being blown out of proportion.

Dev
(P.S. My name was actually given to me by Rob himself when I worked for him in 1998...so I doubt anyone knows him better than me)

P.S.S.S. No more finger pointing lest I use these awesome powers of ass spanking, bestowed upon me by the noble yet ellusive demi-god Ryandor, devine creator of this website...so take a cold shower and cool off...

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

I am going to stay this very respectfully... Please do not bash OrBSydia anymore, it is so wrong to bash OrBSydia when we have not done nothing wrong to Ryandor nor have we done wrong to punt...

Understand that Dev you are stating facts that is false, the word "BETA" means needs to be testing, we have provided help as much as we can, we still will provide it, but if communities such as Ryandor is bashing OrBSydia for false information, it is not a respectful thing...

I will say this once and once and only once...

"Do not judge others for you will be judged." YOU Know DAMN well what I mean by this. DO not JUDGE ORBSYDIA for you will someday be judged. I don't care where or what happens, it isn't going to be me, but you need to understand that KHAYBEL (ROB) has provided a home for our tools that we have developed, if it wasn't for orbsydia there would have not been UO Arch, there would have not been other possible friendship, we build our community on respect and loyality with diginity... We are and never will bash other sites, nor will we ever bash users "like punt" or anyone else here, why you state facts that is FALSE STATEMENTS...

By the way if your thinking we "ORBSYDIA" bashed punt, may want to see what RunUO had said, when we have not said a dime of squat about punt on OrBSydia, refering to the Third Party Programs, also Irro is NOT of ORBSYDIA TEAM... SO STOP CONSIDERING ORBSYDIA A FLAMING BAG BECAUSE WE ARE NOT YOUR PUNCHING BAGS!!!!



Good day, Now please respectfully let this topic die and let OrBSydia be for we do let Ryandor be...

Ravenal
Core Developer - OrBSydia

I'd like to say my posts are my opinions and personal feelings on the matter, and not the view of Ryandor.com. I realize I'm an admin here so my posts are probably construed as such, but they're not intended to be. In fact, Ry could remove my admin access right now and not much would change I'm not sure why I still have it lol.

This website doesn't condone or approve of bashing another website, so we should all cool our jets, myself included.

I get worked up about matters of legality, I've been through the bullshit with Damian at sphere, and still have the battle scars to prove it.

I have nothing against Orbsydia, nor anyone at it, and my last opinion made of Khaybel was a good one (which woulda been ages ago before a reformat or reinstall lost his MSN contact :p)

My posts were not intended to bash Orbsydia, but to bash the legalese and seeming control-oriented rules that punt pasted here. I don't understand the need for them, and I can't understand the desire for them if not to be more controlling of projects that the whole community would prosper from if said control were diminished or removed. We're all in this for the same reasons, the same goal: bigger and better private free servers to play UO on.

I realize that people have differing opinions of what "better" means, and how they should go about it, which is why we end up with a half a dozen programs to do each thing, and a dozen emulators to run it on. But when the reason for branching off and doing your own thing goes from doing it better or the way you like it, to doing it because you can control it and in the end control the people using it, then it ceases to be in the spirit of the community.

If the new rules quoted by punt are not for that purpose, and have some other agenda I'm not seeing, then I apologize for ANY and ALL comments I've made. But from a stranger's point of view, those rules look more like an excuse to power-trip and place a stranglehold on 3rd party programs than it does to protect anyone's rights to develope his or her software as he or she wishes it to be developed. If I'm off-base here, again I apologize.

Either way, I think we do need to quit bashing Orbsydia, because it does violate Ryandor's wishes for behaviour on this forum, so I'll shut up now. Khaybel, I'm sorry.

Thanks,

Respectfully,
Ravenal

Hmm...I'm at a loss as to what your refering to Ravenal but it is as Rosethorn said. We are questioning the logic which is our full right to do. If it is taken for something other than it was intended then that is another matter.

Ryandor's does not make it a point to bash any site, this is neutral ground and always has been.

What people express here are their own opinions which they are free to do as we do not oppress anyone with harsh rules or sensorship (shut up Syd...) but do frown on bashing per say, this I am guilty of as well from time to time (shut up Syd...) But it is always my "personal" opinion based off "facts" which I have experienced and seen with my own eyes and not from rumors or second hand forums post.

As a great wise man once told me after I spent four months climbing the mountain to reach him..."Truth is like a turd...its not pretty to look at...it normally stinks but it always surfaces to the top". nah I just made that up but it is fitting none the less...(that is copywritten)


Dev

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

Ok, let me respond, to a few.

1. First, I have never used source from any Orb tool. So the one who inmplied that, lets get that clairified. In fact, I dont even have the source, other then UOAR, which Xandor gave me after my tools where done (and he of course has my sourcej).

2. The fact I can read some of Orb tools formats, is based on a REQUEST by some users. Kirax2, Hellrazor, etc. They requested it in the fact it as it made their, the users job easier.

3. Khaybel posted asking all to read and ensure they understood the TOS. I did that, and what I saw, I found interesting. I think users should read them, and make their own decisions. But some of the terms, I believe do seem to indicate a rather intersting motiviation. One should not be worried about one discussing what one has asked one to read. That is not bashing. It is saying, this is what their TOS says. Is that in your, the users best interest?

4. Asking one to follow TOS, one would expect to then support all TOS's.

5. No where in this post have i mentioned Irro. I was looking at the TOS, as REQUESTED by Kahbyel. If one is afriad to have discussion about it, that is interesting in it itself.


Revannal, I dont see where I have bashed Orbsydia. I have posted the TOS, and asked users to consider what that means. That is in in line with what Orbsydia asked people to do (read and UNDERSTAND).
Yes, the TOS seem to go to far, in my opinon. The motivation for others, I wonder about. but regardless, what is seems people really want, is just a group of sheep, to not question anything? Is the intent for one to accept, without any disfussion the TOS, regardless of what it says, just because Rob seems to be nice guy? One shouldn't have an issue with discussion, and saying, yes, this is our position, regarldess of what that is. And not have a an issue, with one at least discussing it.

I do not mind bashing Orbsydia. It sucks. There, bashed. You all suck.

You people can put so much effort into bickering about the lamest things.

Orbsydia people: anyone who asks not to be bashed and puts the word "respectfully" in their post, needs a bashing.

RunUO people: anyone who codes in C#, needs a bashing.

Ryandor people: anyone who can spend so much time analyzing, commenting on, and watching the Jerry-Springer-like state of affairs elsewhere, needs a bashing.

You all need a bashing.

_________________
Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

Oh, I forgot some groups.

Punt (he gets his own group): anyone who can use the word "one" in every sentence, sometimes more than "one" time, deserves a bashing.

UOX people (Xuri): anyone who tries to make a map one tile at a time, deserves a bashing.

Members of the righteous order of know-it-all-ness (me): anyone who knows who should deserve a bashing, deserves a bashing.

Bashing for everybody, now move on.

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Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

of course we discuss petty things, that is what people do!

I will attempt to increase the use of "you", to see if I can continue to set my new all time personal best!

On a more serious note, I don't undestand this "your are with us, or against us" attitude. I believe one can disagree, question, or challenge some aspect or topic. That does not make one , or at least I dont belive should make one, anti the entier person or entity.

I disagree with some of my friends on may items. I understand they will pursue to champion their position, as I will mine. We shall on occassiont even entire into discussion, debate, etc. Speaking what we interepreted, and repsenting what others have stated, is not "bashing" each other. And, more importantly, it doesn't mean, that other the current topic, are we in disagreement, not friends, or any other negative conitation one can think of.

But yes, I do seem to believe, there is a prevailing atitude, of a "your are with us or against us" mentality. And if that means that discussion or engainging into discusison on public information, to be bashing, then we have different definitions.

A note, after reflection. I ask others to consider this:

Do they every support something/someone, that they don't agree with on EVERY item? Say one supports republicans (or democrat). If one doesn't believe in every aspect of that that position stands for, the fact they may work to get that position to change their stance, somehow state they are not for the other things they do support?
I ask people to consider this, when considering the above.

Please note, Orbysdia has updated their TOS again. I will offer, the new TOS in many respects, removed or clarified many of the items I offered people to consider the ramifications.

I am not sure I am in agreement with their reverse engineering clause, for it depends on how it is done. But considering the siutation, before, it is far more reasonable to the user. I also believe this clause:
"If you want to use any content of for any reason you must obtain prior express written permission of OrBSydia Core Team" is questionalbe. I intepret this to be distribute, versus use (for how I , the user use data on my system, is really outside the bounds of the scope of an entity). However, it may be referring to just the web site content itself (logo, name, etc), which would help clarifiaciton (one can read it applicable only the first part of the paragraph, or expanding ths scope).

Again, I perosnally believe this is how things should work, and I don't understand why others get so upset when some posts something that questions the original setup. In this case, I believe it worked out for both.
There is a far more reasonable TOS, to the user.

I think people just need to laugh at themselves.

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Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net