Ryandor.com

Reasons why. 1 after messing around with swatches in adobe photoshop for 4 hours i realized it was a waste because well dragons sucks. if you play the client in 3d all the transition tiles are old school so there for. they dont work on 3d. which meens instead of lets say jungle to grass or dirt to mountain or anything for that matter you get dirt to lava to mountain,. like seriously im converting to map generator,. i just feel obligated to tell everyone new. dont waste your time with dragon. its a waste of time..

now dont get me wrong i know someone put alot of work into this. but the transitions need updating like mad if someone gives me a quicky on how to update them in dragon ill do it for everyone. but seriously half the transition tiles in 3d mode are LAVA. and id like to replace these ID's,. actually its my bad ive been scouring the forums and it appears stormcrow has fixed it... my bad. sorry guys i was just pissy. weeks of working on a map does that to you.

You are on the right track changing to map generator. The limitation of dragon not being able to show 3d tiles isn't the reason it's not as updated, but rather the fact it can only do 2 way transitions.

Map Generator can do 3 way transitions. Therefore it will be the program that is going to be updated more frequently.

Here's an easy way to think of it...
Ryandor.com version 1 is Dragon focused
Ryandor.com version 2 is Map Generator focused

Ryandor.com v2 will be coming very shortly.

-Ryandor

you see ive made maps in the past but that was before ryandor.com was really big. i have visited this sight a long time ago. but i meen punt has done alot of really good work from the days i was pasting everything together in sphere peice by peice. worldforging it was such a pain in the ass. hahah.. but thanks for the pointers.

How quickly we bite the hand that no longer feeds us :/

You know, to any new person just starting, I'd definitely tell them to go with MapGen because it's being updated and can do 3 way transitions and shallow coasts and all that good stuff.

However, to say Dragon sucks is going a bit far. It didn't suck when everyone was using it, it didn't suck just before MapGen was made, it didn't suck for the last few years when it was far and beyond the best option to use.

At risk of sounding like a conceited jerk, my map blows away 95% of all custom maps I've ever seen, and it was made with Dragon. No program is better than the person using it, or the time taken and invested into the map being created with it. Look at Xuri, he's done his map one painful tile at a time with worldforge and his map will be better than 95% of anything ever created with Dragon or MapGen.

Those are grand words about a map you haven't seen, Rose Stop hyping my map! I'll never be able to release it even if I do complete it, since it will never live up to the expectations anyway ;P

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-= Ho Eyo He Hum =-

Nothing you've spent that long on will suck, cuz anything that sucked a year later will have been redone by now... and you've had 8 of those years to redo things

And hey, if *I* have to live up to the hype then dammit so do you!

*mumbles and mutters under his breath*

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-= Ho Eyo He Hum =-

I have to agree with Rose absolutly. I also have a map with 3-4 years of solid work, made with Dragon. I have modified Dragon in many ways through out that time, to compile a map how I want it. I love Dragon, it doesnt suck.. believe me, even with a few beers

Anyways, also agree, if your starting out fresh, or even somewhat involved with a previous Dragon style map work.. Id suggest to take the time to convert, and learn Map Generator.

Dragon can be modified to use alternative land tiles for the few that are incompatible now between both 2 and 3D, fairly easy too really.
Map Generator is not 100% free of this problem yet either. Point being Dragon is not the issue, and shouldnt be put down like that. *shrugs*
Dragon just needs to be fine tuned, really. I seriously doubt anyone that has made a good map, did it without making any modifications to Dragon at all.


I bet no such map even exists

WE WANT THE PROOF!

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Forget what you know, know what you forget.

Hah, that won't work, Dian. The currently disabled forums for my shard (12387 posts, 1342 topics, 383 users) are filled with posts like "NW is vaporware!" and "Show us the work you've done, proove that it's not just all a hoax!" as well as fake Xuri-quotes saying "only 6 months until it's done" - so I'm pretty skilled at denying accusations and ignoring requests. ;P

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-= Ho Eyo He Hum =-

ya it still kinda sucked. because you always had to go back into worldforge and fix the 9,000,000 errors it left behind. ive been working on a map solo for like 2 years trying to locate all the damn errors that are left in it. till i finally decided to make a new map, and i figured the first map was me not dragon. but alas i did all the work and i came out with dragon giving me 100x the errors i had before. all these programs are 3rd party,. and i understand someone else wrote them. but honestly i think it would be fair to atleast tell people that its incomplete,. or what kind of errors they have not worked out yet with the program before calling it finished instead of beta... i understand programming takes a long time and no one thanks you,. but seriously if you make somthing to be used by other people just let em know that your still working out the bugs. that would have been nice to know before i wasted a week making i bmp for dragon which just kinda screwed me over... thats all im saying.. i already have a glitchy half finished map. i just wanted a working one..

Well, no offense, but until you're the one making the perfect program it's really not your (or my) place to tell the developers they suck. Personally I cannot make anything better myself, so I'll be grateful that someone made anything at all. If I don't like it I won't use it.

Dragon was made a very long time ago and hasn't been developped in a very long time. This doesn't mean it was released as "perfect and finished", it simply means the guy making it decided he had better or more important things to do with his life and thus stopped updating and fixing it. I highly doubt Darus would call "it sucks" as constructive criticism even if he were currently working on it. All his programs were released "as-is" with no warranty of fitness or completeness. All Ultima Online editing programs are released as such, and all are assumed "use at your own risk".

If you only spent a week making the bmp, then I suspect that would be the reason you had 9,000,000 errors or 100x the errors as the first time. Again no offense, but Rome wasn't built in a day, a good map will not be drawn in a week.

Thats fine its just my opinion. im sure ill get plenty of people telling me im a jerk for it. but honestly i dont really care. like i am saying for the 3rd time now. i understand the thankless job of programming and understand the hard work that goes into programming somthing. because i also have made programs for myself to use to help me accomplish somthing. but i think you should still take the time to let people know that the version is not final. its beta,. or tell people that it isnt being work on anymore and wont be updated. etc its just good etiquette.

If i were ever to release somthing to the public to use i would tell them the know issues or atleast tell them that, OSI sucks and updates UO without fixing any of the issues the have with it. which may cause problems with your program. i hate being un-informed about what im using. and in the download sections say "a powerfull tool that allows you to fully customize a map" or the 7000 posts about people having problems using the program. doesnt tell you enough infromation. all im saying is that people deserve a Faq to know common problems with the program....

as im sure most people reading this post wont actually read any of my posts through. and rosethorn read my post. before you comment. i at no time said that the developers suck. i said dragon sucks. and personally i think it does. im currently trying to fix the scripts to get it to work fully,. just so that i can contribute. i also accnolaged that its 3rd party. but i would personally never release anything unless i was sure it worked 100% and if it didnt i would alteast post a beta after it. and no rome wasnt built in a day. but its not to complicated to map a bmp,. i understand it might be for you but even a simple bmp water, to grass to jungle with water -5 and grass and jungle 0 it still messes up,. since again you were not listening to me at all and didnt read anything i wrote. its transition errors. transition do you understand what that meens? well let me explain it. between grass and jungle there is what? i dont know either but lava doesnt seem to be what i was looking for. its not the BMP.

like i said you didnt even read my post you just ran in when you saw dragon sucks and started backing the program.

the point of the thread was to state my opinion. i expect that there will be people that will dissagree. and some who agree. but please read what i have said 3 times now before you post. because i wont be responding again to defend my opinion.

and honestly i dont even care. im sorry if i hurt your feelings rosethorn i didnt meen to. im just trying to state my opinion. i understand you may dissagree thats fine. but dragon sucks is still my opinion. so im sorry to offend.

Granted, I've not created a map for a long time, but when I did, I spent about a month straight in Photoshop working the map before I even opened Dragon.
-Ryandor

i guess. but ive had a map i created from about 2 years ago. and i finished most of it except the errors left behind by dragon. and the map i created this time is only -5 water and 0 everything else except 30 mountain its not a massive map. im just using it to test dragon. to see if it was dragon that cause the transition errors in my first map i made 4 years ago. and it was. because the same thing happened. thankfully i found stormcrow had fixed most the transitions. im just having problems making the coastline transition now. but ill get it fixed up.

i was just saying that my personal opinion was i think that there should be a faq to let people know about known issues. theres no info in the download area under info. well actually i get a page error for it. i didnt actually want to cause any trouble with people. i should have expected nothing less on an internet forum though hahahah. thats why im saying if i pissed anyone off sorry. im just stating my opinion. its not like im going to desuede anyone from trying it themselves. i just wanted to let people know to go to map generator. instead of waisting time like i have with dragon.

Owww, that's comprehensive, though. Each day of our lives, we need people who do uninterested acts of Humility as this one. Yes, like if it was one of the 'nine virtues' followers...But, hey! Whats this?:



*Speechless*


/EDIT: That's not the way you can allow people to recognize which's the best or the not-so-best aficionado written program on the web. By myself, I'm using Dragonmod11 (One of the buggiest, as I've heard from here and there) and thanks to some hardwork time that overpass clearly those '4 hours of messing', I have almost finished, what's proud to be named, my almost alphish map0.mul and it's something I can be proud of.

I'm in debt (Psychological, of course) with these hobby software developers, and If I got driven mad by such creations, I would try to implement them first, rather than providing noxius advertising, and giving nothing but poor references about the program

Just for the record, the official dragon website does say "pre-release" beside the download link.

I agree with you Rosethorn.

I would venture to say that without Dragon, there probably wouldn't even BE a UO Landscaper, MapGenerator, and other similar BMP-2-Map utilities.

Dragon's been around for what, 3-4 years now? UOL just came along about a year ago, and MapGenerator is brand new.

Sorry, but I think this kind of attitude is really counter productive to encouraging developers to write utilities for us to use. Pointing out a program's limitations is one thing, but to say it "sucks" is just rude. If you think it "sucks", don't use it. Better yet, re-write all the transitions. Or write your own program, I'm sure you could do a much better job.

P.S. With the exception of certain 3-way transitions, Dragon works just fine. Fine enough to produce a few thousand custom maps on shards all over the world, at any rate. Prior to Dragon, you would have had to use something like Worldforge to produce your entire map by hand one block at a time. The lack of gratitude from some people just boggles my mind.

_________________
-= HellRazor =-
Shattered Sosaria is coming!
http://www.shatteredsosaria.com

and something else for the record.. no one on this site had anything to do with the actual creation of Dragon. This website is not the 'Official Home of.." either. This is an open community supplied by Ryandor, to give us all a place to hang out and share our map making stuff.

Over time, Dragons transition scripts have been redone, and things of that nature, but no one here has ANY control over the core of that program.. so, maybe that can bring a little light on why we might get a little edgy at your statement being Dragon sucks.

And please, next time you post a new topic, please try to use an appropriate forum. This is most definetly not a 'map making help' topic, rather a rant.. bitch.. or whatever else along those lines. thanks.


We do try to keep a non-bias kind of atmosphere here, so you dont have to worry about voicing your opinion about Dragon. Just keep it civil

** moved to Whatever Forum**

_________________
Forget what you know, know what you forget.

You obviously don't understand.
You obviously don't know how to read either; launch any Dragon executeable and on the title bar it should clearly say "Dragon for Windows V1.xx.xx Beta Prerelease #xx" (because only a handful of us have the 2.x Alpha)
It was never finished and noone ever claimed otherwise. Also even if the program itself were finished, it was left to the end users to contribute the data set. Which is all any of the Dragon Mod projects are.

If you want a fully finished product before you are able to get your hands on it and use it, then you can go join Orbsydia and wait for UOL to be released. The rest of us here are mighty thankful to have had Dragon even in its unfinished state for all these years, because the alternative was doing it all by hand in Worldforge.

Mapgenerator is also unfinished. The same goes for the data. Even when the program is finished that doesn't mean the data will be. And the more posts I see from jerks like you the less enthusiasm I have for finishing a dataset which means you'll have to write your own and you'll be complaining how much that sucks too in a month.

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This space for rent.

Dragon is fairly strictly limited in utility, I agree. However, once you understand those limitations, it's easy to work around them and still get a decent product. I created a wilderness map for a small group of friends to roam around in. I made the bmp, ran Dragon and DragonSP, distributed files, and we're still using that same map eight months later.

Given the problems you've had, I'm not surprised you're upset. I ran into just about every problem you've had when I started out. As has been stated several times, Dragon is not a completed project, has never been, and probably never will be. But it's still a damn sight more impressive than anything I've written (for UO), and I'm just grateful to have something as useful as Dragon. It's got problems, but every problem you've come to us with is solvable if you bother to learn how to use Dragon properly.

seriously guys its just an opinion. i sad im sorry if i hurt your feelings. which i odviously seemed to hurt alot of you deeply. but asside from that. like seriously guys. its just the title. ive said that i understand the hardships of programming. personally i just would have like to been informed of the errors i would have had to deal with prior to. so i could have just used map generator from the get go. but feel free to spend your time arguing about what a counter productive jerk i am. and after your done you can all pat eachother on the back for putting me in my place. but honestly i dont really care. its my opinion and im not saying that the developers suck. im not saying any of you suck. you can say whatever you what because honestly i really dont care to argue with you about this subject anymore,. just let it go guys. you win im a jerk.. next time instead of saying "dragon sucks". i will say.

"dragon although at the time was usefull, now has been out dated by the more modern map generator. and i would recommend map generator to dragon. because dragon is half complete"

which is really the same thing but hey whatever works for you....

Now since ive responded feel free to pick me apart below..... haha

In case you didn't notice, this is a pretty peaceful forum and peaceful community here. If you come here expecting to get treated like a jerk, and make sure we have no option but to do so, odds are good you'll be treated like one.

Ask your questions, state your opinions, but try to keep it all in the flavour of sharing and building. I assure you we'll be the most civil community you can find, if you give us and the programs we use, the common courtesy of mutual respect that we will give you.

honestly guys i dont care. im serious i didnt meen to offend anyone. all im saying is its my opinion. i seriously understand you have yours. but do you really care. i meen you got your point across. im saying you win. i even said after my first post that i was sorry i said it that way because i was pissed off when i did. it just turned into an arguement. i never ment it to turn out that way. and im not being sarcastic. i dont know how many ways i can say im sorry and i give up... let me know on that rose haha and im trying to fix up some scripts in dragon. although i ended up just screwing it up more. im trying like come on. dont you ever say anything when your pissed off and frustrated?

never.

My point of view, and comments to this entire thing.. was pretty much based on your contradicting statements. You boldly stated Dragon sucks.. okay, whatever. That doesnt bother me. But when you try to justify your opinion.. make sure you know what you are talking about.

You ask things about dragon that only a new user would ask, yet you claimed to have been using it for a couple years. Thats where I got pissed. You claim to have writen programs, yet you seem to not have any understanding to the simplest scripts that Dragon uses, and ask what they do.. and this is all after you claimed Dragon sucks. *shrugs* thats where the agrivation comes in. It was obvious you had never fully tried to use the program, or understood it before making that statement.

If your friend borrows your car off and on over time, and one day says to you "Damn man, that car is a piece of shit!" you would probably laugh it off. Because you and he both know exactly what it is about your car that sucks.. you have both experienced the cars poor preformance or whatever the case.

But, if that same friend had never even sat in your car, and just came out saying "Damn man, your car is a piece of shit!" I am certain you would not laugh it off the same way, rather you would take offence to that.. however much offence taken would depend on your personality.

Maybe that helps clear it up a bit.. we are not pissed because you said Dragon sucks. We all are fully aware of the programs strong and weak points, trust me. But because you apeared out of nowhere making this claim.. aware or not of the fact you obviously dont know anything about it prior to making the statement.. yeah, were not going to laugh and share our negative remarks about the program.

_________________
Forget what you know, know what you forget.

Dragon rules in a hand of one, who believe in his abilities, have will to use it with no alternatives, and have hands straight enough to not make a lot of stupid mistakes to blame a Dragon against of yourself.

Dragon rules. UO 3d - sucks.

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"Be calm and silent, as Darkness care not of passions and lies. Be patient and cold, as Darkness exists out of borders of time and emotions. Just be yourself, as You are in the Darkness and Darkness is inside of you."
-Dark Ones Doctrine, 2001y (c)-