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 Post subject: Mules a bad thing?
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 12:51 pm 
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I have long been in favor of one character per player, but for the sake of persistent identity more than for the issue of mules.

Mule characters are characters that are created as craftsman to support the player's other characters, for those of you who may be unfamiliar with the term.

One flaw in the method most commonly used to combat them, which is to limit players to one character, is that it does not allow for multiple independent play styles. Most people do not want to be solely craftsmen, and if the game does not allow for effective, independent combat skills (IE, be both a grandmaster smith and grandmaster warrior at the same time), then there will be a shortage of craftsmen in the game. Even if they can be both, that does nothing but combine the mule into the player, and perhaps limit interaction even more.

Given the relatively small amount of players who are willing to dedicate themselves purely to the craft, or even partially in exchange for weakened combat abilities, and the fact that player-based economies are already weak, perhaps mules are not a bad thing in comparison. I would personally rather see a shard filled with warriors, wizards, and an equal number of mules, than a shard with very few craftsmen at all. I do not think that mules detract significantly from the amount of inter-player dependency or interaction, in the end.

After all, crafting is often boring -- which is why players gave their crafting characters the name "mule" to support their primary character, instead of calling their warriors and wizards "gofors" to support their primary crafter. Mules effectively replace NPCs, which help players interact no more than mules do.

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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 1:39 pm 
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Wow, you're reading my mind, I just posted about this in another thread. :)

I actually don't mind "mules". I have no problem with someone who creates a blacksmith because they want to be able to make and repair armor for their fighter. If you look at it, they still need to sacrifice to do that, in this case its sacrificing a character slot. And its not like they can actively play their "mule" at the very same time as one of their other characters.

The key thing for me is character diversity. I don't want a shard full of uber characters that can do everything, or a shard with 3 character templates that outmatch everything else, thus almost forcing players to choose one of them by proxy. I want characters that are limited enough in what they can do to have to rely on other characters who can do things they can not, and visa versa.

What is a "mule" really than just another character? Combined with a class system, the diversity angle is still accomplished whether the player calls his character a "mule" or not. Don't we all have "main characters" or characters that we prefer to play over others? It doesn't mean we don't have any fun playing the "mules", "alternates", or whatever one wishes to label them.,

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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 1:42 pm 
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Adding further to Syd's post, I'm trying to figure out a good way to implement "trades" as seperate from "professions"...basically allow a fighter to be a blacksmith on the side for instance.

But on the same token, if someone focus' his life on blacksmithy as a main trade, then that person will always be a better blacksmith than someone who does it "on the side".

I realize then that this might get back into the whole "mule" thing but... sigh. What can ya do.

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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 6:11 pm 
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I'm all for the 1 toon per player. For persistent identity as Syd said, and also because there is no player economy or interdependency when everyone has mule accounts. It affects everything down to the pk environment. Because when you can crank out everything you need then you can go around and kill anyone weaker than yourself without caring who/what they are. If there are maybe a dozen gm smiths on the shard do you want to piss any of them off? Not if you want to replace your exceptional plate and viking sword you don't. And tradeskills on an adventurer are still viable, you just aren't going to practice all of them. Sure you will have to sacrifice something, but so will most other people so the playing field is still even. Will there be people who are focused exclusively on their fighting skills to get that extra edge? Sure. They better have friends who can craft them stuff, or not be a complete asshole and piss off all the other people who can craft, and their friends. Couple this with no npc merchants and suddenly there is a lot more consequence to your actions and a bigger social dimension. I think what kills the current mmorpgs for me more than anything is the lack of open pvp. Sure you can go play on a shard with all the asshole pks, but that isn't what makes a real rich diverse world. In UO (and Meridian59 before it for those that remember) you paid attention to your surroundings and who was around you, because they might very well kill you. Todays games, unless someone is messing with your spawns or you need to buy/sell something most people hardly take notice of the people around them.

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 3:48 am 
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Those are great points Stormcrow. If you're limited to 1 character and there is a skill cap, the player is left to make choices as to the 2-3 things they will be good at. And if a shard is run off a player-run economy, players will naturally want to invest in some trade skills to make money and/or better equip their character.

I need to think on this more, and ways to implement it into a shard. :)

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 8:29 am 
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How many players do you think will be needed in order for a player-only economy to function? Or, are you considering NPC vendors that sell things for players?

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 9:42 am 
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I think it would only require a number of crafters/sellers that is proportionate to the total population of the shard.

I think in a totally player-run economy, the number of crafters/sellers will adjust itself according to the shard population and needs. Supply and demand will take care of things.

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 10:02 am 
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Would the crafters possibly pay the "hunter/gatherers" for raw materials (meaning looted weapons/armor to smelt) so as to enhance their own raw materials gathering?

Could you have a sort of "trade association" to keep one crafter from undercutting another? Should you have?

Sorry, just thinking off the top of my head. :)

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 11:03 am 
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I was more or less wondering about what would happen if a player decides to play on an off-hour when there are no or few merchants around from which to buy or sell. Do they effectively have to stop and wait to play until there are merchants online?

Originally, the merchants in Ultima Online (in this case, I mean NPC merchants) were created to do two things: supplement the growing economy that mostly consisted of crafters too low-level to effectively supply the population, and to provide for situations where no means was practical for buying or selling with another player (as in the scenario above). Player vendors were also created to satisfy that second problem, giving players an effective 24-hour presence.

So, do you plan to employ player-owned vendors, or some other means to account for the fact that many players will not be online often enough and will quite often choose to spend the time they are online doing things besides buying and selling?

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 11:53 am 
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Sydius wrote:
I was more or less wondering about what would happen if a player decides to play on an off-hour when there are no or few merchants around from which to buy or sell. Do they effectively have to stop and wait to play until there are merchants online?

Originally, the merchants in Ultima Online (in this case, I mean NPC merchants) were created to do two things: supplement the growing economy that mostly consisted of crafters too low-level to effectively supply the population, and to provide for situations where no means was practical for buying or selling with another player (as in the scenario above). Player vendors were also created to satisfy that second problem, giving players an effective 24-hour presence.

So, do you plan to employ player-owned vendors, or some other means to account for the fact that many players will not be online often enough and will quite often choose to spend the time they are online doing things besides buying and selling?


Player owned vendors. All the vendors would be player owned.

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 2:37 pm 
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You could do a combination of both. Say put npc vendors out with just the essentials required for a player to actually play the game (arrows, crossbow bolts, bread loafs, apples, cloth for crafting and bandage making, regs for spells). Everything else remove from the npcs and let the players craft it or grow it or forage it somehow.

Even if you manage a total 100% player run economy, what bowcrafter is gonna want to spend 8 hours a day clicking the button to repeatedly make arrows for the dozens of people that go through them fast as he can make them? This also ensures no player at any hour of the day is left sitting around waiting on someone to log on and sell him some arrows (or whatever).

Some sort of method of players to sell their goods offline (player vendor, auction house, whatever) is absolutely required if you're going to attempt a player run economy, it's way too frustrating to have to sit in town to sell your crap when you'd rather be out adventuring... especially if your play time is limited every day.


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 3:29 pm 
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Sydius wrote:
How many players do you think will be needed in order for a player-only economy to function? Or, are you considering NPC vendors that sell things for players?


That is part of the problem in a free shard. There is a critical mass of active players needed so that you have a reasonable chance of finding needed goods and services when you play.

CMS wrote:
Would the crafters possibly pay the "hunter/gatherers" for raw materials (meaning looted weapons/armor to smelt) so as to enhance their own raw materials gathering?

Could you have a sort of "trade association" to keep one crafter from undercutting another? Should you have?

Sorry, just thinking off the top of my head. :)

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Those were ideas I had in mind as well. And again for the adventurer who wants some livelihood besides adventuring, a material gathering role is perfect, because we are talking about sacrificing only 1 skill. So mining, lumberjacking,fishing and of course hunting become natural choices. There would also be craftsmen who may not even have the skills to gather their own resources and would have to buy from others (maybe they would rather have fighting skills. I was thinking of how to make underused skills more useful as well and also to make being a dedicated craftsman require more; for example makeing armor and weapons require arms lore as well as blacksmithing, etc.

I think player run trade associations (guilds) would also be importan institutions for the reasons you've said.

HellRazor wrote:
Player owned vendors. All the vendors would be player owned.


My thoughts as well. Additonaly to stop the 1 stop shopping supermarket, each player would only be allowed 1 vendor, and vendors would be types just like the npc shopkeepers, so your blacksmith vendor can only sell what a blacksmith can etc. Now even housing can be player made with the right system (checkout the player town system for RUO) so really stables and banks and healers are the only thing we must have (it would really suck if there was no way to rez if other players werent around)

Of course as Rose said (not going to quote since it was mostly a recap) you have to strike some balance, and fun has to be the overriding design principle.

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 10:50 pm 
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ACK! :shock:

Player ran economy's never work!

World economy's depend on a great deal of variables and to a all new player base that has no skilled crafters yet it is devistating. POL's test shard is proof that relying on players to take care of everything does not work! Not to mention EQ and all those other lamer games that use this system.

Why does the player have to be limited to 1 character? How about 2-3? This would allow the player to have other alternates while preventing them from mastering all skills and losing that need for community interaction.

If you use the skill/class system I mentioned in a seperate thread this would further limit the players from GM everything mules all together and force community interaction.

The idea of limiting players to a single NPC vendor is good but how about taking it one step further and only allow them to place those vendors in very specific locations in those related craft shops. So the Chef vendors had to be in the town bakery. The armor vendor had to be in the Armor or general store etc.

This would provide a focus on the towns and make them much more "alive" and provide a gathering point for players instead of that one huge giga vendor shop in the woods like UO has now.

Normal UO shop vendors should still be allowed in game to provide a basic foundation for starting players and basic resources to get them off the ground until they attain the skills needed to support their self and their community.

POL frustrated the hell out of me since there were no vendors either player owned or NPC shop keepers selling craft items. Who do you turn to after your last shovel breaks and you have no means of getting a new one to mine those minerals needed to make the ingots to make the shovel to repeat the process. NO ONE! The character either waits for hours until a generous player gives them one or they delete the character and start over hoping to get it right before they run out of luck again.

EQ and SWG just sucks no matter how you look at it. :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 2:34 am 
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Dev Viperrious wrote:
The idea of limiting players to a single NPC vendor is good but how about taking it one step further and only allow them to place those vendors in very specific locations in those related craft shops. So the Chef vendors had to be in the town bakery. The armor vendor had to be in the Armor or general store etc.

This would provide a focus on the towns and make them much more "alive" and provide a gathering point for players instead of that one huge giga vendor shop in the woods like UO has now.
Dev


Thats actually exactly what I am looking to do.

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 8:32 am 
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I would not want to see 50 weapon selling player-owned vendors at the most popular smithy.

Why not just have one or two NPCs, like usual, but have them sell things for players for a small fee? You drop off the item, tell them how much you want it sold for, and then they deduct the fee from the gold paid for it upon purchase. If more than one identical item is available at the NPC, then the lowest priced one would be the only one displayed.

Ryzom uses a system somewhat like this, and I think it works well. Almost everything is bought and sold between players, but at the NPC shops in town.

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:50 am 
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Well to clarify my position in regards to Dev's point about the megamalls. That was also limiting players to 1 vendor in their own house, so they could be whatever type of shop they wanted to basicly. Maybe allowing a vendor to be placed in market areas in towns as well (although I was leaning towards the player town system).

I always wondered about that POL shard you are refering to their official shard of course...I forget the name...I used to keep up with the goings on their website but I never did get a player account. What kind of a playerbase do they have though? That is the key to a player run economy. It could work on official shards because you've got like 1000 people on at all times (or at least when I played). If you have say 100 total accounts on your server, we are looking at like an average of maybe 10 on at any given time, and so the system does not work. Maybe a hybrid system.

The thing with allowing even 2 accounts is we still can have 1 tradesmule and 1 adventurer and then everyone is more or less self sustaining again.

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:56 am 
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I successfully ran a player-run economy with only two people for about six months. Obviously, they could not make everything they needed, so I made a compromise. I created an "import/export" chest at the docks of the player-made town, and anything dropped into it was deleted and replaced by "credit" -- an invisible variable attached to every player. They could then use that credit to import anything they wanted, or could convert that credit into gold or vise-versa.

However, to keep people from relying on it too much, anything you dropped into it was only worth half-value, and anything you bought cost four times the value, since it had to be shipped and all. In addition, every time you converted credit to gold or vise-versa, 10% was taken away.

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 10:11 am 
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Sydius wrote:
I would not want to see 50 weapon selling player-owned vendors at the most popular smithy.


I think the resulting price wars would be fun to watch. :)

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:49 pm 
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Oh not not 50 vendors, perhaps 8-10 per location. If you restrict it then you have a reason to charge higher prices for leasing the spot to the players thus draining funds and creating a reason to work or adventure.

As the player base grows then you simply add more shops or towns. Yes I realize it would mean a patch for the players but it also brings the world to "life"! Players might whine about the patch but I promise they will love a new area to explore and the bordom of a never changing world will be shattered until the next patch.

Personally I like to follow grand story lines for the world and allow the players to determine the fate to a degree. An example would be that if a town is invaded by undead or orcs or what ever and players do not activly defend it then that town would be reduced to ruin over time. Once they see their limited resources going down the tubes they will be more likely to work together to defeat the invasion. Its not important that they actually win only that they try. If they make an attempt they get to keep the town or village and have a little fun in the process.

The two month long shard wide invasion thing that UO does just flat out pisses me off to no end and has done more to run players off than to attract them.

Sort of rambled there...my bad...

Dev

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