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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:53 am 
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Argh. I was writing a long pm and the browser closed.

Will just throw the ideas out here.
For starters, I know we have a subsite for the worldmaker, but being as neither of us wants to maintain a website, would it make more sense to just have a subforum here for Worldmaker (just like we have for RUO)? It is then 1 account to signup for, 1 forum to read, and 1 forum to moderate (since anyone affiliated with you subsite is affiliated with Ryandor.com anyway)

Image. A truecolor image would be great, because it offers total control and only 1 image for the end-user to worry about. The problem I see is it is a nightmare to try and work with it photoshop (and probably the same or worse in the others). Now I have no idea what the amount of work involved in making a specialized paint program for mapmaking is or how long it would take, but that seems the only way to go that route. It would for example allow us to say let you select the terrain type and altitude you want to draw at from a menu, and then just select the appropriate color for you. The other thing would be the ability to handle the various options that as of right now have to be done using a seperate terrain type For example, one wants grass without statics, uneven grass, uneven grass without statics, etc. They are all still grass and they will transition to other terrain types using the same grass transition, even though we have to assign it its own hashkey and copy and transpose all the related transitions.

Which segueways into my next item, which is the data organization. Can we simplify any of these above mentioned items without hardcoding everything? For example there are really only about 40 base terrain groups. Then you have your different conditions you want to apply onto them. And of course the special groups like caves under mountains, ridgelines, waterfalls, etc. I would like to reduce the amount of basicly redundant files without taking away the users ability to create their own conditions. I would also like to cleanup the palette accordingly; keeping it organized and useable while still leaving room for customization (something I couldn't do with mod11).

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common.xml is the file that has the references.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:57 am 
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punt1959 wrote:
common.xml is the file that has the references.


Ahhh, ok, again it wasn't in 1.0, I think it was hardcoded at the time, because I remember having to wait for Rich to add new terrains in as I asked him for them and then send me back a new core. The reason I am working out of the 1.0 scripts is because I know I wrote all of them, and while they are limited to 2-way trans for basic terrains I at least know they are all accurate. God only knows what is in the 1.1 distro because there isn't any kind of version control info on the transitions.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:01 am 
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Stormcrow wrote:
Will just throw the ideas out here.
For starters, I know we have a subsite for the worldmaker, but being as neither of us wants to maintain a website, would it make more sense to just have a subforum here for Worldmaker (just like we have for RUO)? It is then 1 account to signup for, 1 forum to read, and 1 forum to moderate (since anyone affiliated with you subsite is affiliated with Ryandor.com anyway)


Well, that is up to the group. I of course, have grown fond of it. I think when one discusses the entire range of the tools, a single forum becomes large. Of course, I do wonder if the accounts could be shared, that I have no idea. I leave that up to the those that setup the site. If we want to close and move here, I do not object.
Quote:
Image. A truecolor image would be great, because it offers total control and only 1 image for the end-user to worry about.


I wasn't clear before. I have found many people, accidently save their files to 32 bit color. I know for map0, 32 bit color wont work in a QIMAGE (too big). So I would have to revector how I do that if we went to that.
But for those that do have a 32 bit image, and have the colors specified in their terrain.xml, it could be made into an 8 bit color easily enough, without causing one to recreate the image totally (for one can't just convert to 8 bit, they have to have the index match up).

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Now I have no idea what the amount of work involved in making a specialized paint program for mapmaking is or how long it would take, but that seems the only way to go that route.

A specialized paint program, would be signficant. Rudimentary capability is fairly straightfoward. but fill algorithms, etc, would take some time. And I am not sure it would ever match the multitude of find programs out there (both free, low cost, and high cost).

Quote:
Which segueways into my next item, which is the data organization. Can we simplify any of these above mentioned items without hardcoding everything?

Most things are possible, in terms of orgainization. I just need to understand what is desired.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:19 pm 
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Stormcrow, what scripts are you specificly working on, then? I dont want to dig into some transitions, if you were devoting to that same area... so.. what you got cookin? :P

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:45 pm 
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Ok. Was just a thought. But yeah, at the least it would be nice to have a single signon.

As for the image then not something I would worry about.

Same for the paint program.

As for the data and how the program handles it, I'm not exactly sure what our options are. I need a clearer picture of the program flow.

On the basic level I assume mapgenerator loads up the images, then compares what it finds to the terrain.xml and altitude.xml and processes that, then goes through the transitions and processes those, and finally on to the statics files and processes through those then gives you your finished product.

I guess what I need are extra fields in the files that the program can interpret. The thing is I don't want to add too much complexity to it because the program runs extremely well and seems to be nearly unbreakable and I don't want to lose either of those things.

For example, we have grass defined in terrain.xml.
Code:
  <Terrain Name="Grass" ID="1" TileID="3" R="0" G="100" B="0" Base="88" Random="False" />

Which means the terrain name is grass. The hash id for grass tiles will be 01, the base terrain tile (which we get from insideuo) is 3, and the color we will use on the map to indicate we desire grass is a medium green, the base altitude to use ( :idea: Aha! this is where the altimageprep.exe knows what to assign it in the altitude map, key 88 in the altitude.xml which is land 0), do not randomize the altitude.

Then we have an entry for grass in common.xml
Code:
  </TransInfo>
  <TransInfo Description="Common - Grass" HashKey="010101010101010101" File="Grass.xml">
    <MapTiles>
      <MapTile TileID="3" AltIDMod="0" />
      <MapTile TileID="4" AltIDMod="0" />
      <MapTile TileID="5" AltIDMod="0" />
      <MapTile TileID="6" AltIDMod="0" />
    </MapTiles>
    <StaticTiles />


Which says if it is a grass tile, surrounded by grass tiles, then randomly make it tile 3,4,5 or 6.

Moving right along we then have our various transitions, and because grass is higher up in the hierarchy, it transitions to most other terrains (as opposed to them transitioning to it) so there are a lot of files.

Now that's all well and fine, I think it is as simple a system as we can have that still gives us the power to do what we want to do.

Now along comes Joey Bagadonuts who wants to generate his grass in a green acres area without statics, but he still wants flowers and rocks and grass in the main map area. So we have to go into terrain.xml, copy the grass entry, giving it a different id and changing RGB values to make it its own color but otherwise keeping everything the same. Then onto common.xml where we duplicate that information, just changing the hashkey to our new id and removing the file call. Then (and here is where it gets ugly) we have to go through the transitions directorys and not only copy every grass to x file, renaming it and changing the hash key throughout the file, we also have to search for any files in other directorys that say x to grass (such as rough edge, water trans, ridges, specials, etc). All this work where the only difference is we want statics in some places and not in others.

Now along comes Vinnie Boombats who wants to generate uneven grass in a T2A area, but he still wants his normal grass in the rest and Joeys plain grass in green acres. So we go through all the steps we just did above, except the only difference here is we want to change random="Fales" to random="True".

We can go on and on and on now for different areas. Say we want 1 color rocks and type of flower in the south, another in the north, a 3rd in the east,etc,etc,etc. It is also great that we have the ability to do all this, and the room in the palette for it as well. However this is a hell of a lot of work from the development end to make it work and it is all to easy for the end-user to fuck the whole thing up (which is probably why Rich plans to go back to hardcoding everything)

While we can accomplish the same in Dragon on a regional basis, we had to plan where we wanted each area beforehand and box them out. It also got to be a lot of work when you had boxes in boxes so I don't think that is much better of a solution, but there must be some way we can consolidate the scripts. Say some other value, like a secondary hash that says, ok use the same transitions as grass but a different set of statics (or no statics, or make the ground uneven, etc).

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:12 pm 
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Dian wrote:
Stormcrow, what scripts are you specificly working on, then? I dont want to dig into some transitions, if you were devoting to that same area... so.. what you got cookin? :P


Well I was going to strip back to the 2 ways. Then re-work the 3-way. The thing is all basic 2 way transitions have been done for a year now. Aside from possibly the new terrain in ML but I haven't looked at any of that yet.
As per my above post, any other terrain is basicly just a matter of copying and changing the haskey.

I would say work on "special" transitions. Things like waterfalls, ridgelines, etc.

As usual though, I want to go through and get a reorganized palette and xml files because I am going to reassign hashvalues and colors. I'm going to be throwing out probably most of what was done after I left the project because it would take me more time to go through and verify/correct it than it would to make from new.

What I would like to see from the rest of you guys right now is your thoughts on what is a logical reoganization based on how you work. Just be sure to read the stickys over in punts forum as well, because we have more options about what order we want to build in.

What I really want to do is settle the Z-level values on a range everyone can live with, as well as what groups we consider belong where(terrain wise). As I've said I really see no usefulness of having -120 to +120 in 5z steps. I would much rather start at 0 and go up by 2 (except mountains of course). As it stands right now we have 4 groups of 48 swatches each in the altitude palette, which leaves us 64 swatches unused. I have been toying with the idea of including a 5th group, and I think I probably will, because it makes it a lot easier to understand what you are working with.
If we stick with 4 groups then we could expand them each to 64 swatches, 64x2=128. So we could go from 0 to 128 in nice 2z steps, or we could cut back on the top range a little (I really see no need to go up to 128) and either slide the range down (say -20 to +100) or we could also include some of the 5z steps as well (since it seems to bother a lot of people, even though it really is a non-issue) or some combination of the 2.

Or we could have 5 groups of 50 swatches, 0 to 100 (-20 to 80?) The question is how much useable altitude is really enough. I want to hear this from the experienced mapmakers who have run live shards like you and Roan and not the pie in the sky people who talk about things like snow-capped mountains (I really love snow-capped mountains too, but the client just does not do them justice, and there are lag and visibility issues that make an overly large range of height useless). Am I being a dick about this? Absolutely. Because in the end I am going to arrange things as I see fit, so this is the time to alter how I see things (because I do want it to be as generally useful to as many people as possible)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:16 pm 
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Later I hope to post the logic flow that map generator goes through. I am rusty, but slowly coming back to me.

It is pretty simplistic.

At the moment, I am trying to work around a bug in QT 4.1.2 with their Q3Support which is keeping mltplacer tool from working.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:23 pm 
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Sounds like a plan.
I'm rusty too, I haven't written transition scripts since Mod11 and UOL 1.1 were released. I knew pretty much how UOL handled all the xml files inside and out at the time but I am rediscovering as I go (like the above flashes of answering my own questions about how and why, and figuring out why your program wasn't reading some of my scipts).

Dian (and anyone else interested in helping) I did just think of something I am sure is not done. The dungeon wall transitions. UOL doesn't have them. I never got around to rewriting them for Mod11 either. They are a bit more complicated because they are 2-way transitions (you do some from floor to black and others from black to floor). So say (pulling this out of my ass) the NW, N, and W walls are created from the floorplate to black and the SE, E, and S walls black to floorplate (or something like that). It would be a tremendous help if someone could work on getting the bugs out of those. You can even do the work in Dragon and send me the scripts and I can convert them for Mapgenerator (would probably be best anyway since I am reassigning hashkeys).

Also Dian, since you are the moderator (and I think site admin for that matter) for punts site. What are your thoughts on the forum? Can we get a combined login?

Also can Ry get off his dead ass and add some links from here to there? :P

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:57 pm 
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The flow:

Map Generator process one block at a time. It is a one pass system.

It read in a block and then process the tiles, left to right, then top to bottom.

for any point in terrain image. it does the following:

1. Build the hashkey based on its index, and surrounding pixels images.
2. Determines if the tile has an altitude delta. If it does, it then randomizes it from 0-5.
3. It gets the correspond tile id for this index
4. It then sees if the hashkey matchs the rough corner, roughleft, rought top, or transistion (in that order).
5. The maptile is now goten from the list of tiles in the transistion (random from the list)
6. The altitude modififer is updated
7. Art tiles (statics) are also picked up in in transistions.
8. Random art tiles are now checked and added for that point (overlap is checked on write).
Loop is continued until block is finsihed.
Static is written out to file
Art is now checked to see if random entires are multiple tiles, and can fit in the block.
Structure file information is added as needed.
Art data is now written out for that block.

Next block is processed.

Taht is the general flow. I will look to see how the altitude deltas are choosen (for instance, mountains can be made "uneven", etc).


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:04 pm 
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I had a thought that is similar to the altitude palette.. but not enough time at this moment to post it.. will do that within the next hour or so..

I can screw around with the dungeon transitions.. whats up with using the transition wizard that was made for UOL? I just vaguely remember using it when Dknight (i think) released it originally.. anyways, I was reminded of this tool, and agreed that it seemed to be perfect for what we are needing.. maybe its not really any faster to use it, than manual entries *shrugs*

As to the forum suggestion, unfortunately, there is no current way to 'share' members between Ryandor.com and the World Maker site. They are 2 completely different setup's. At best, on that note, would be to disable the member use on World Maker, and create the forums here, for that site too.
I dont really like that idea for a couple reasons.. first off, its Ryandors site.. I am sure it wouldnt be any issue with permissions on creating these forums here.. but then, Ryandor's Forum sections have grown some more. Once a Forum starts getting over a certain amount of forums.. it starts to get overwhelming.. and much harder to keep up on, with new threads, etc..
Punt and I agree, that the World Maker site is just the right setup, with only those 4 main forum categories.. hopefully you can get around having another site to login to.. sorry, bub. over time, World Maker is going to grow.. and having its own site (and its own sql database, not shared within ryandors forums) is necessary. besides the simple fact, that if Ryandor decides to pull the plug one day, World Maker is as easy as transferring the sites scripts, and database.. to relocate.

ouch, still here longer than I wanted.. :shock: *runs out the door*

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:19 pm 
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punt1959 wrote:
1. Build the hashkey based on its index, and surrounding pixels images.
2. Determines if the tile has an altitude delta. If it does, it then randomizes it from 0-5.
3. It gets the correspond tile id for this index
4. It then sees if the hashkey matchs the rough corner, roughleft, rought top, or transistion (in that order).
5. The maptile is now goten from the list of tiles in the transistion (random from the list)
6. The altitude modififer is updated
7. Art tiles (statics) are also picked up in in transistions.
8. Random art tiles are now checked and added for that point (overlap is checked on write).
Loop is continued until block is finsihed.
Static is written out to file
Art is now checked to see if random entires are multiple tiles, and can fit in the block.
Structure file information is added as needed.
Art data is now written out for that block.

Next block is processed.

Taht is the general flow. I will look to see how the altitude deltas are choosen (for instance, mountains can be made "uneven", etc).


Ok cool. That clarifys a few things. It also raises a couple more questions.

1. Kinda moot (since I know it works and that's all that really matters, just curiousity) but how are the map edge tiles calculated, since they are missing 3 tiles from their grid (or 5 for the 4 corners). Also what about the dungeon line on map0, does it calculate across it or is that considered a map edge?

2. Is that + 0-5 or +/- 0-5? That is something I would like to see changed into the scripts. So instead of saying true/false for random we can specify 2 numbers. Like -1, 1 will either subtract 1, add 1 or not change. 1, 5 adds anywhere from 1 to 5. Etc. In general with the altitude I am going with 2z steps. Right now it is -32 to 94 for all but mountains. I am debating if mountains are going to use 2z steps or just 5. The other thing is the scripts don't actually care (at least in UOL) if you use the wrong color on the altitude map (use say other instead of land for grass) you will still get the right tile at the altitude specified for the color. I am assuming mapgen works the same way?

5. You are refering to common.xml correct? Just want to be clear.

7. Art tiles are placed off the current height (or a calculation derived thereof, current height -20, etc) and not the original height right? Is there any way to make this customizable on a per script basis?For example the water "bedrock" tile goes 10 lower than the base (it works out to -15 but the water group already has a builtin offset of -5 from stated value) and then the static is placed 10 above that. The mountain caves very similar, however because of that you have a trench running through the mountains instead of being able to randomize the height of the mountains above the cave but still have the floor where it belongs (so sometimes we want relative positioning and sometimes we want absolute).

Also the structure file brings up something important. Does the static placer check against a structure as to whether or not it can place in a given tile? For example if I have built something in an area then I don't want a randomly placed tree, rock or flower placed in the same spot as well.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:29 pm 
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Dian wrote:
I can screw around with the dungeon transitions.. whats up with using the transition wizard that was made for UOL? I just vaguely remember using it when Dknight (i think) released it originally.. anyways, I was reminded of this tool, and agreed that it seemed to be perfect for what we are needing.. maybe its not really any faster to use it, than manual entries *shrugs*

I dont really like that idea for a couple reasons..
Punt and I agree, that the World Maker site is just the right setup, with only those 4 main forum categories..


I don't remember the current working status of the transition wizards. The release is far different from the alpha (that you might still have on your hd somewhere). I sent DKnight a template of how the transitions should be created and a better format for the wizard but I don't know if he ever got it work. My idea was that you only had to tell it "Terrain A, Terrain B, transition tiles for 12 directions and it generated all 255 entrys for you" (the 256th entry would be in common.xml) This is for 2 ways of course. I never finished 3+ way transition template.

At any rate it won't work for those dungeon transitions for a couple reasons. 1 is because about half the trans go in x to black and the other in black to x. It also should only be about 64 transition lines total (because there is no autocorrect for static only transitions). What we are talking about here is adding walls. Oh! Almost forgot, there are some 3-ways that would go there as well, like trans from 1 type of floor to another (dungeon tile to dirt) and black of course.

As far as the website thats cool. I can understand that completely so we'll leave well enough alone.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:37 pm 
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:idea: Now I remember something I desperately wanted but Dknight said couldn't be done (or was too much trouble) a wildcard hash. So like for say dark wooden floor, where it doesn't matter what it is transitioning to, the transition tile is always the same. I have to duplicate the script for each terrain type, even though it doesn't matter.
Say
Code:
19****191919191919
where ** == NOT 19
Of course it needs to extrapolate that value on the fly, because it should always be not whatever the other group is. And even better would be (NOT any other id listed in current hash) so like for 3-ways (cave entrance comes to mind) where the rock and the cave entrance are the constants and the dirt or grass or snow or sand or whatever would be the wildcard.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:51 pm 
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Quote:
1. Kinda moot (since I know it works and that's all that really matters, just curiousity) but how are the map edge tiles calculated, since they are missing 3 tiles from their grid (or 5 for the 4 corners). Also what about the dungeon line on map0, does it calculate across it or is that considered a map edge?


The only time this is an issue is on the edges of the image (the image is totally loaded,so I always have access to the one above).
If an edge, I just add the tileindes for that location (as if it was right next to the same tile).

I don't pay any attenting to any other boundary, just the image edges. So it generates based on what is in the image, it doesn't know anything about what the client does.

Quote:
2. Is that + 0-5 or +/- 0-5? That is something I would like to see changed into the scripts. So instead of saying true/false for random we can specify 2 numbers. Like -1, 1 will either subtract 1, add 1 or not change. 1, 5 adds anywhere from 1 to 5. Etc. In general with the altitude I am going with 2z steps. Right now it is -32 to 94 for all but mountains. I am debating if mountains are going to use 2z steps or just 5.

I do the following for the delta:
tile.delta += randomModifier * (rand()%6)
So it is 0-5, times the modifier (which I think is 0/1).

Quote:
The other thing is the scripts don't actually care (at least in UOL) if you use the wrong color on the altitude map (use say other instead of land for grass) you will still get the right tile at the altitude specified for the color. I am assuming mapgen works the same way?


I do not use any linkage between the altitude and terrain. I wasn't even aware there was a linkage until recently. I just use the altitude index to get an alitude. That is all I use it for.


Quote:
5. You are refering to common.xml correct? Just want to be clear.

Well, I preloaded the random, but yes, common was the source of where to point to.

Quote:
7. Art tiles are placed off the current height (or a calculation derived thereof, current height -20, etc) and not the original height right? Is there any way to make this customizable on a per script basis?For example the water "bedrock" tile goes 10 lower than the base (it works out to -15 but the water group already has a builtin offset of -5 from stated value) and then the static is placed 10 above that. The mountain caves very similar, however because of that you have a trench running through the mountains instead of being able to randomize the height of the mountains above the cave but still have the floor where it belongs (so sometimes we want relative positioning and sometimes we want absolute).

I suppose any altitude approach can be taken.


Quote:
Also the structure file brings up something important. Does the static placer check against a structure as to whether or not it can place in a given tile? For example if I have built something in an area then I don't want a randomly placed tree, rock or flower placed in the same spot as well.


currently it doesn't no. I could make that another check, before I place random statics (if any structure will be in this space. So that can be addressed. Want to first see how much we are going to changed, before I decied to continue with this, or do a rewrite.


Last edited by punt1959 on Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:54 pm 
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Stormcrow wrote:
:idea: Now I remember something I desperately wanted but Dknight said couldn't be done (or was too much trouble) a wildcard hash. So like for say dark wooden floor, where it doesn't matter what it is transitioning to, the transition tile is always the same. I have to duplicate the script for each terrain type, even though it doesn't matter.
Say
Code:
19****191919191919
where ** == NOT 19


Well, I think he was correct, it is hard to do. I have the transistion keys in a map. So what one is asking is to check the key look up. Or generate fake keys on load, that cover the range, and point to the same item.

Not impossible, just have to look into it.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:00 pm 
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punt1959 wrote:
I do the following for the delta:
tile.delta += randomModifier * (rand()%6)
So it is 0-5, times the modifier (which I think is 0/1).


What about the 2nd part of my question? (can we (or you rather) make it scriptside?)

Quote:
I suppose any altitude approach can be taken.


I'll take that as a yes?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:05 pm 
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yes, it was.

What I need, is a format of the scripts. What type of information one wants to convey. I can then aid in the actual syntax of the scripts.

Then, I can code the desired behavior. So far, the only one I am concered about is your wildcard hash lookup. But I will look into that.

I am pretty sure, I am at the point of just rewriting this (or at this time, the main loop).


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:07 pm 
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Hmmm....Trying to figure out how to write the equation for +/- range between value X and value Y.

If it is too much trouble I would settle for say 2 hardcoded formulas, where instead of random true/false we have random 0/1/2 and can choose which formula.

1 being exactly what you have and the other being tile.delta= + or - 0 to 1 (I know that isn't how the code would work but you get the idea).

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:09 pm 
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Stormcrow wrote:
Hmmm....Trying to figure out how to write the equation for +/- range between value X and value Y.

If it is too much trouble I would settle for say 2 hardcoded formulas, where instead of random true/false we have random 0/1/2 and can choose which formula.

1 being exactly what you have and the other being tile.delta= + or - 0 to 1 (I know that isn't how the code would work but you get the idea).


To me it sounds like what you really want is three values:

lower mininum delta
Step size
Number of steps


So a 0,0,0 would of course do nothing.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:11 pm 
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Ok, I guess it's time we take this discussion over to your place too. I'll start a new topic over there. http://worldmaker.ryandor.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?241.0

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:34 pm 
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Sorry Stormcrow,

There once upon a time was a color table for UO set up for use in Photoshop. Not sure where I saw it or where you might find it.

Perhaps InsideUO could be use and then the color tables could be sampled into Photoshop. (Yes I know it will take forever to do)

Dev

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:27 pm 
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Well, it was an idea Dev, but the truecolor image idea is nixed (for now at least). I misundertood punt when he brought it up. Anyway, come join the discussion over at punts forum.

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