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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 7:14 pm 
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Apprentice
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Ok ... as some of you know ... I am working on a huge city map ... something like 1000 x 2000 tiles (actually it has grown some) ... Currently I am using World Builder 0.23 to place buildings and create new ones ... but I have so many to do that it is becoming a task of monumental proportions ... in other words - I'm getting burned out already ...

Anyone know of a better way ... I have thousands of buildings to create and place ... not to mention stock with furnature ... items ... NPC's ... but all that later ... I just want to do the buildings right now ...


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 7:58 pm 
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Not your daddy
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sub-contract the jobs out?

unfortunatly.. what your asking is, how can you build a city, without doing the work.. kinda thing. only answer is.. prety much, find some people to help.

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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 8:28 pm 
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Slayer of Fools
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Yeah, it is a huge task. You'll need help. There is just no way 1 person can do that many buildings. Hell I once worked on a map where we had some really huge citys with 100s of buildings but still nowhere near the size you are talking about (and not all in 1 city) and even with a crew of a dozen builders it was an awful lot of work and there was frequent burnout.

If you are trying to do this all yourself it is better to start small and add as you go. Just doing a city the size of Britain is more than enough work to burn 1 person out.

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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 9:04 pm 
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Would it be possible to create some "multis" for the generic building shapes? Then he'd only need to furnish them.

:shrug:

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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 9:14 pm 
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Slayer of Fools
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It is, but you don't really want to use multis in your map (for several reasons but I will not get into them right now, search the forums and I'm sure you'll find past discussions).

Programs like UOAR (if you have or can find a copy, since it is(was?) and Orbsydia program) will allow you to build and library buildings then place them.

The real problem with any of these cookie-cutter approaches is that if you are going to have a city of thousands of buildings but there are actually only like 20 actual different buildings just repeated over and over you might as well not bother, because it is going to bore the fuck out of most players.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a really cool idea to do a massive Llhankmar type city, but it is a lot of hard work to do it right and it is certainly more work than 1 person alone can do.

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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 9:38 pm 
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Apprentice
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Well ... I'm adverse to doing the work ...

I just converted my map over to Punt's Map Generator palette ... I like the idea of splitting the altitude and terrain into 2 maps ... but that generates it's own difficulties ...

I guess the first thing I need to know is: What is the best tool for creating and/or placing buildings? Punt's wfmap/wfmulti, Worldbuilder 0.23 (from Xuri's site), UOAR, or some other that I have not seen yet?

My plan is to build this city in districts and release the map with a "here there be dragon's aspect" outside the boarders of what is created and then as I create more update the map and viola new land to explore ...

Actually Lankhmar was an inspiration ... my DM (we have played D&D now for over 20 years) used that city (his version of it) in his campaign and it was a blast ...


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 8:04 pm 
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Posting Whore
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Oh just wait, you haven't even gotten to the fun part yet! After you place those 1000+ buildings then you have to deco them and spawn all the vendors and critters :P

You should take the easy way out...

Start a small city and expand it as the player base grows. Then you won't get burned out and the players won't be running around an empty city.

It's easier to clear an area of statics and throw up a construction zone with dirt base than it is to place 1000+ buildings in the begining that you really have no need for.

To make it interesting you can even script some simple worker NPC's like masons, carpenters and lumberjacks who whack at the nearby trees. Let the area go for a few months while you work on the buildings in the background throwing in some new wall sections, stone blocks to let the players know that something is happening in the area.

This way your shard is opened years in advance, you don't require any outside help and it keeps the players interested since they get the feeling the world is growning and alive.

NPC monsters might even have their own construction areas...*hint! hint!* even orcs need a new cave once in a while.

Just a thougth to keep you from bashing your head on the key board for months on end...their expensive and the blood gums up the keys. :wink:

Dev

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 9:37 pm 
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Actually I don't think the work in progress is a good idea, for mainly one reason. Once you open up and have players there to drive you insane and take up your time, you won't have time to build anymore (or at least not very much) and your in-progress will continue forever.

It IS possible for one person to do it all alone, I'd say a good 90% of the current statics and 100% of the current map on my shard were built by Dragonfire alone. Of course.. it's taken him 4 years to do that...

I dunno how big that city of yours really is, but it can't be more than our entire map put together hehe. However, if you're not prepared for the long haul, I'd have to say stop now and wait until you are ready... or ditch the huge city idea and build small.

They're making it seem like the doors/signs/npcs/deco work is the only tough part after getting it built.. it's not. You still have to write the map script for it all, think up names for all those shops and stores (that'd be my hardest part! :P) and modify things like the multimap.rle and in-game map scripts/cartography and such too.

Anyways, not trying to scare you off, but if you're burning out now things don't look bright for the future of such a huge undertaking. Accept that you've bit off more than you can chew, find some people to help, or resize your ideas to your physical and mental limitations :p

Me personally... I couldn't resize and I refuse to admit it was too much. Therefore I hired two dozen people to help over the past 4 years :p


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 9:45 pm 
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Could always be like Xuri and just take.....what are we on, 10 years and still going? ...... to finish it.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 10:29 pm 
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OUCH! Stormcrow is just like that last poodle I shaved...straight for the groin... :?

Dev

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 12:06 am 
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Coming up on 8 years this autumn, actually. Going for 8 more!

Quality over quantity. Err.. let me rephrase that: MapMaking is like a fine wine - the longer it takes to mature, the more hype is generated for it.

"A map originating in 1998? WOAH!"

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 5:26 am 
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I think that's part of what's taken Tragena so long lol. We started out pretty basic, map was ugly, scripts were um.. beginning to mid-intermediate in quality, ideas were pretty standard and boring... stuff like that.

DF tookover the map to redo it and made it look so damn good we got all this hype surrounding us all the sudden. Then of course the buildings ON the map already weren't good enough for the new map, so those went. Then of course the scripts weren't good enough to match the map.... and the ideas weren't unique enough or complicated enough....

Meh! Down with hype I say.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 12:41 pm 
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Rome was not built in a day.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:19 pm 
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Posting Whore
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Actually it was! Aliens...their watching...waiting...soon...

(See it is possible to answer every post without providing any useful information or being offensive!)

*breaks out the chalk!*

Dev

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:20 pm 
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*wonders if Dev noticed yet...*

-Ryandor


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:12 pm 
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Posting Whore
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AHHH! :shock:

Now I have to post twice as much to make up for the lose!!! :twisted:

*Wipes the chalk dust off his pants...*

Dev

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:12 pm 
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Somehow I don't think that's going to quite make up for it
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-Ryandor


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:23 pm 
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Journeyman
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Xuri wrote:
Coming up on 8 years this autumn, actually. Going for 8 more!

Quality over quantity. Err.. let me rephrase that: MapMaking is like a fine wine - the longer it takes to mature, the more hype is generated for it.

"A map originating in 1998? WOAH!"


I also plan to say my map entered development in 1998.

Except it will actually be built in a month in the year 2006.


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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2006 2:30 pm 
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Apprentice
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Actually ... I think the greater part of my frustration is coming from the fact that I am working so much right now (6 days a week) and at a job that leaves me too exhausted to create ... so I usually only have one day a week to work on my map ... when I do work on it, I am pushing hard to get as much done as I can and am usually disappointed with the amount accomplished ... This map may just be a while i coming ... You have an 8 year jump on me Xuri ... but we'll see :)


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 1:04 pm 
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Hmmm.... depends from buildings complexity and dimensions. Very simple structuricaly or not big at all, it must be enough to find 2 normal helpers, who aknowledged in UO architecture. But building city with hundreds of handwork houses... no one be pleased to take that much work into their duty. By myself, i have made a 4 Britain-sized and 4 Jhelom-sized cities with walls, gardens, bridges, shops, interior, spawns and 8 four-leveled fullfilled dungeons with only Pandora's Box in hand, and that was sure enough to make a break of 3 months from architect activities...
what are you counting on - i dont know. But personally i will never even bother to handle such a job.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:24 pm 
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It has been a long time.

Hey Stormcrow. That wouldn't be my server that you were talking about would it? I put it to rest for a long while, but recently I found RunUO and started playing around with it again.

Let's see if this link thing works:

http://members.cox.net/llywelyn/Cherafir.jpg


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:37 pm 
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Llywelyn from Ab Initio? It's funny you should appear, I was just wondering a couple days ago whatever happened to you and your shard :)

How goes things?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:41 pm 
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Hey RoseThorn!

Well, my long abscence was due to a combination of life events (changing my degree from Archaeology & History to Computer Science with only five classes left to graduate, adding a wife and two kids, graduating, moving, new job, etc.) and becoming disillusioned and disgusted with Sphere. From the looks of the community today, it looks like we all feel about the same concerning Sphere.

I was poking around recently and found RunUO which seems pretty good and I can code to my hearts content. It looks like the map making tools have really advanced as well. I made my stuff with WorldForge and some programs who's author I can't even remember now. I remember drawing that city with graph paper and transposing it with WF one tile at a time. :)

I think that is when StormCrow joined me and immediately decided that I was insane. I think I had about 5-10 people working on that city at any one time for about two years and from my roster it looks like I burned out about sixty or so individuals. Perhaps StormCrow was right.

I have several other cities (one three times as large) that I am still working on. I caught this thread and was wondering if there is a program out there that could read a bmp and place statics that has open source? I would be interested in modifiying it to work out the footprint of a building, pick a style and generate a building with roof and the works. Perhaps even interior walls.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:40 pm 
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Grand Master
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Congrats on everything! Sounds like you've been busy :)

I got disallusioned with sphere and quit UO altogether for a couple years, but I poked my head in a few short months ago and found they've done wonders with it. 56b is real nice.

If you can handle c# then go with RunUO, hard to argue with open source, you won't ever be waiting on a dev to fix something again with that.

Glad to see you back, your map was the inspiration on how good I knew a custom map could be :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:11 pm 
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Thanks RoseThorn; I appreciate the compliment.


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