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 Post subject: ML map + Dragon mod. 11
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:56 pm 
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Young
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I'm having trouble with converting a ML map with dragon. I use dimensions: 7168 x 4096 and dragon says # BMP Error : X-Size doesn't fit
I guess I should manually modify the size somewhere. I already did that in mapcfg.ini but it didn't help. What else should I do - or am I already doing something wrong?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:14 pm 
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Dragon (if memory serves) is preset to the original map dimensions. So the ML map size would not work, being its a different size than original.

Maybe Stormcrow knows more on that, but as far as I know, Darius would have to add support in Dragon for the ML map dimensions for you to be able to generate one that size.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:15 pm 
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Although without checking it out myself yet, you would at least need to have both a *.bmp and the settings of Dragon set to the ML map dimensions for any chance at all.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:18 pm 
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Ok. In case it is not possible to create ML sized maps with Dragon - is there any other program out there that is able to do that? I'd really love to have ML on my shard but RunUO crashes if my map is not the correct size. (Or how do you guyes make your servers run with ML?)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:57 pm 
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First, with RunUO, you need to change the map definitions (/misc/MapDefinitions.cs) to account for the larger map. You'll have lines like:
Code:
RegisterMap( 1, 1, 0, 6144, 4096, 0, "Trammel",      MapRules.TrammelRules );
You should just have to change the 6144,4096 part to 7168,4096. I haven't done this yet, but in theory...

As for Dragon making a map that size, the best guess I have would be to make an old-size map using Dragon, then make a second map with a different dungeon area (x from 5120 to 6144). Then copy the full map you created with Dragon into the area from (0,0) to (6143,4095) and the extra dungeon area into the area from (6144,0) to (7167,4095). Do Punt's tools support the new map size...?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:03 pm 
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Oh, I bet punt's tools are completely configurable, knowing him and his fore-sight.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:04 pm 
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Spudz777 wrote:
Do Punt's tools support the new map size...?


The map editor supports both, yes.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:16 am 
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Now if only you could re-write the MUL2BMP program to be map-size configurable, that would be the bomb! :)

Seriously though, I just got the chance to take a closer look at the Worldmaker suite and its quite impressive! The only thing I haven't had much luck with is doing direct static editing within the map (and with the supplied multi creation utility). The interface to build statics seems a little cumbersome, unless I am missing something?

Once the statics are actually built and in the Worldmaker format though, its excellent. Very cool to be able to drag entire structures around on the map and place them where you like! I'm planning on using RunUO/UO Architect to build my structures in-game, then converting them into the Worldmaker format for use in the map editor.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:52 am 
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Young
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I guess I should try Punt's Mapeditor then... But my current map.bmp is made for Dragon so I gave it a final try :wink: I was able to create the map0.mul file by editing the dragon.ini file. I set MapWidth=896
and MapHeight=512. So I have the correct sized map0.mul now. DragonSP won't work though. Gives me an error "Access violation at address 00401DD5 in module 'Dragonsp.exe'. Read of address 00000022."

Is this some kind of "common error" with a workaround or is it because of my larger map?

EDIT: And this error occurs only with forest.scp. Without it, DragonSP runs just fine. No other programs running at the same time, unmodified installation of Dragon mod 11.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:29 am 
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There is also a newer version of Dragon that allows you to specify the map size. The only problem is that DragonSP was never updated and still only creates statics for the old size. So you might end up having to do your statics for the extended piece by hand.

Another tool Punt wrote that is out there will take an old-size map and extend it to the new size. So using that you could use Dragon or whatever to do most of the work, then extend it to ML size and do the rest by hand using the Worldmaker Map Editor.

EDIT: I see by your post above that you already found out about the newer Dragon, AND the limitations with DragonSP. :(

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:44 pm 
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HellRazor wrote:
The only thing I haven't had much luck with is doing direct static editing within the map (and with the supplied multi creation utility). The interface to build statics seems a little cumbersome, unless I am missing something?



One edits statics by selecting, and draging/dropping (or cut/paste), or adjust altitude, hue, etc. Static editing is primary focussed on touch up. Serious layouts is optimized in the MLT editor.

I one time had the placing grid concept in the map editor. However, the feedback at the time, that was too complicated for how people used the map editor itself. It appeared the "common" approach was to build structures/layouts in some other tool, and then integrate into the map (with touch up in the map editor). The tools are designed around that conops.

I dropped mul2bmp for lack of interest (my part, etc). After doing the map generator, it would be far easier to of course integrate into UOL data files (for I understand them far better now).

My hope is to finish the suggestions/bugs that Sydius made on the worldmaker site (bug reports, docking window saving, prompt on save) for both the mlt and map editor.

At that point, I suppose it would be in order to rethink the conops, and see if there is a way to better integrate the art editing ability of the multi editor into the map editor, without adding complexity that was originally objected to.

Note: It is worth noting, that in the multi editor, when in "placing mode", the plus/minus keys affect the placing grid altitude. There are also so advance placing techingues with modifier keys, but they where rarely understood, so I haven't really publized them (how normalization is used when placing).


Last edited by punt1959 on Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:55 pm 
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Once you get the hang of the tools (the multi editor is just like the map editor, but much easier to deal with altitudes), they are very easy and efficient for building gigantic and complicated structures.

It basically goes something like this (in the multi editor):

Hit G, type in the altitude of the level you want to place on, double click something in the palette (it does not matter what, I usually double-click metal doors because they are one of the first things in the list), then hit "insert" (the key on the keyboard), type in the item ID (from InsideUO) of the item you want to place, then click once everyplace you want the item to be. When you are done with that item, hit insert again to pick a new item, or hit escape and click on a different item in the palette to get out of "single-click" mode. You can also use the arrow keys, plus and minus, etc. to move items when placing them any other way would be hard. Oh, and dragging an item actually duplicated it, which is great for forests (since you can select multiple items, IE the tree trunk and the leaves).

Anyway, I agree, it is about as far from "intuitive" as I could imagine, but it works wonders once you get the hang of it. :-P I would say the above steps sound silly and cumbersome if someone had told me before, but I admit, silly as they are, I can build entire cities much faster than if I tried to do it in-game.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:24 pm 
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The placing grid also keeps the last altitude. So if you want to build all at one level, one can place the grid at a level (relative to 0), and then place all at that level. The placing grid altitude is always shown on the right side of the status bar.


I guess I missed the mark on intutative. To me, the concept of a placing grid is pretty intutative (in 3d work withing a 2d confine). But I admit I based if off tools that I had used, and focused on overall effecient, not necessarly initial learning.

Anyway, yea, heavy editing of art in the map editor, although doable, is far as convient as being done in the multi editor.

As for the copy, one can get a "move" by holding the shift key while dragging.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:05 pm 
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It is not the "placement grid" that is not intuitive... that part is intuitive enough.

I expected to be able to drag myself around on the map when I held down the right mouse button, and it would be better (IMO) if selections worked on squares instead of diamonds. Also, I think moving should be the default, and copy the special-case. Stuff like that.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:24 pm 
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Well, moving is suppose to be the default actualy (although for terrain, it really can't be). HOwever, for whatever reason, it ignore my setting of the default preference, and I never followed up on it (as one really couldn't be consistent anyway, given terrain needed copy).


Selections are based that way due to the orientation of the map. I have struggled with this one. But fundementally, the map is skewed 45 degrees. And one is attemptiong to select tiled based, but not at from a visual perspective.

I did toy with other approaches, but needed to balance it (from my perspective) with what could be reasonably accomplished with the scope of what I was to put into the selection code (how fancy an algorithm).

Not an excuse, more of a limitation on my own ability I suppose, and the constant struggle that the visual perspective is not equivalanet to the actual underlaying (it is really at 45 degree angle, but art is not, etc).

I am not sure what was meant by being able to drag oneself around by right clicking and moving.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:07 pm 
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HellRazor wrote:
Once the statics are actually built and in the Worldmaker format though, its excellent. Very cool to be able to drag entire structures around on the map and place them where you like! I'm planning on using RunUO/UO Architect to build my structures in-game, then converting them into the Worldmaker format for use in the map editor.


I assume you are using the UOARextractor tool. Although it exists, I probably wont be bringing that back to the Worldmaker site (and to mingw precompiled version). I haven't figured out what advantage UOAR provides, and I am sure the format will change again if UOE/UOAR pro is ever released. Frankly, it is such a limited format, with so much information lost (true altitudes, hue, etc), that is not a recommend approach at all, only a last resort.

If you are planing to build new items, think very hard. UOAR structures are limited to "floor" levels, and can never be subterrain. In addition, there is no ability to add invisibles (doors, etc) so if you later want to merge into a multi.mul (for later use), you lose that. Roofs are pretty simple in the Multi editor (the placing grid makes that pretty easy).

But of course, with that understanding, ulitmately the choice is yours. If you understand the limitations of the format, and the fact that exporting is not a long term support mechanism, then you have the information to make an informed decision.

At some point, I do think UOE is suppose to come out , and let one place structures like one does in the map editor (of course, one can't do subterrain still, unless the format is overhauled).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am 
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punt1959 wrote:
HellRazor wrote:
Once the statics are actually built and in the Worldmaker format though, its excellent. Very cool to be able to drag entire structures around on the map and place them where you like! I'm planning on using RunUO/UO Architect to build my structures in-game, then converting them into the Worldmaker format for use in the map editor.


I assume you are using the UOARextractor tool. Although it exists, I probably wont be bringing that back to the Worldmaker site (and to mingw precompiled version). I haven't figured out what advantage UOAR provides, and I am sure the format will change again if UOE/UOAR pro is ever released. Frankly, it is such a limited format, with so much information lost (true altitudes, hue, etc), that is not a recommend approach at all, only a last resort.

If you are planing to build new items, think very hard. UOAR structures are limited to "floor" levels, and can never be subterrain. In addition, there is no ability to add invisibles (doors, etc) so if you later want to merge into a multi.mul (for later use), you lose that. Roofs are pretty simple in the Multi editor (the placing grid makes that pretty easy).

But of course, with that understanding, ulitmately the choice is yours. If you understand the limitations of the format, and the fact that exporting is not a long term support mechanism, then you have the information to make an informed decision.

At some point, I do think UOE is suppose to come out , and let one place structures like one does in the map editor (of course, one can't do subterrain still, unless the format is overhauled).


What I find handy with UOAR is not editing per se, but rather the ability to extract structures and items (either static or non-statics) from within the game. I'm still messing around with Worldmaker so I may be missing some of its advantages and features, is this possible from within the map editor?

I still find that the easiest way to build and edit structures is by doing it in-game with something like Pandora's Box. But I'll take another look at the multi editor as well. Again, I may be missing out on some of the features and advantages simply because I haven't dug into it far enough.

Without a doubt, a huge advantage to Worldmaker is the drag-and-drop capability, and the ability to build on any Z axis. :)

Also, I thought that once you converted a structure to Worldmaker you could then place it on any Z access?

I do feel you should continue the UOAR and UOL support simply because it gives the end users more options. You will always have people who are more comfortable with some utilities then others. I feel that the more flexible a utility is, and the more options it allows, the better!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:27 am 
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Quote:

What I find handy with UOAR is not editing per se, but rather the ability to extract structures and items (either static or non-statics) from within the game. I'm still messing around with Worldmaker so I may be missing some of its advantages and features, is this possible from within the map editor?


Hmm, one selects it in the map, copy (or drag), and place in the mlt editor (paste or drop). So yet it is doable. I was not aware, and do not believe it UOAR supports extracting terrain (looking at the file format, there is no provision to do this). Worldmaker multi only supports art tiles.

Quote:
Also, I thought that once you converted a structure to Worldmaker you could then place it on any Z access?


One can, but not automatically. If ones build a structure, with a basement of some negative offset, when placed on the map, it automatically is placed undergound. An extracted UOAR image must first be offset in the multi editor, before saving. So it is doable, just another step one must make during the conversion process.

Quote:
I do feel you should continue the UOAR and UOL support simply because it gives the end users more options. You will always have people who are more comfortable with some utilities then others. I feel that the more flexible a utility is, and the more options it allows, the better!


In principle I agree. However, the format was not choosen for its transportable ease, it was choosen for its C# import/export ease. It can be overcome of course, just signficant more work on others part (for instance, the UTF-8 is not mimiced exactly, long names in the UOAR format would actually not work with the extractor). In addition, one doesn't find the source readibly posted, and only the older versions. So with UOE extensions, it is not clear how that information will be found (still not clear what the status of it will be ). The formats have never been published, it was left to on to go to the code (old versions, which are no longer published). All these things contribute to decision on continuing support or not (the amount of work on my part I guess).
However, the good news I was trying to allude to, was possibly UOE would have the same ability in the future, of placing sturctures on the map.


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