Ryandor.com

Well, here's my fast question.

Does 'colortable_eng.bmp' 's colours work for Dragon Mod 11 (it came with it... it's shown below)


Or does just 'mod11eng.png' 's colours work? (which is shown below)

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"Don't let your mind wander- It might not come back."

Only Mod 11 I think.

Dev

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

Hehe... dragon 11 can use any color table, but it responds not color, but index number of color palette. So, if it will be a grass 0 inscripted into 00-slot (First one) it will be a grass 0 at map, meaningless what color is layed in it. So, mod11eng.pgn is just adjusted to work with D11, but there is not depent what color layed in each slot...
Indexed image is ajusted into 16x16 color matrix (256 colors total) that in hex-code looking like that:
Dragon reads that matrix and respond each slot as a land type and it's altitude. First it generate a rawmap (map without transitions, just tiles with altitude) and then it making transitions between them, due of scripts again. So it is how it works.

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"Be calm and silent, as Darkness care not of passions and lies. Be patient and cold, as Darkness exists out of borders of time and emotions. Just be yourself, as You are in the Darkness and Darkness is inside of you."
-Dark Ones Doctrine, 2001y (c)-

What Xenoth is saying is correct. The actual colors don't matter in the slightest. What matters is the position of the color in the index of the bmp. To do this correctly, choose any palette (in in your favorite photoshop- or gimp-like program) and index a blank bmp to that palette. Then use that palette to draw your map, according to your maptrans.txt script.

If you search the forum, you'll find where I've posted pretty explicit instructions on how to index a file.

I see, thanks. lol

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"Don't let your mind wander- It might not come back."

How index images work can be confusing to most inexperienced users.

In essence, an 8-bit (256-color) image is like a "color by number" drawing. Each pixel in the image is a single number (between 0 and 255), which tells the computer which color to use in that particular location. The color that correlates to each number is dependent upon what we nerds call a palette (think of a painter's palette -- the weird board with dabs of paint on it that an artist uses to select and mix colors). If you pick up one palette, the number 5 might mean "red," but on another, it might mean "blue."

Dragon does not care which palette you use -- the colors do not matter, it just cares about the numbers. In this way, Dragon is almost like a palette in itself -- where, for example, the number 5 means, "grass at altitude 15."

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Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

Actually it would make a huge difference which pallet you use since your map would come out quite a bit different than you expect. Look at the two color charts and you might notice the terrain differences...

I know "Exactly" how color tables work since I made my own custom scripts for Dragon and edited them myself.

Dev

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

It goes by index, not the palette. The palette could be completely black, and it would still work.

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Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

If you want to end up with random terrain...yes...

All those color indexes reference various scripts which are set different for each color table.

Mod 9+ uses



While Mod 11 uses totally different scripts which use different terrain for some of those indexed terrain types as well as elevations. Using a 9+ color chart with Mod 11 would be like creating a map at random...

You can use them however you like if you want to change all those index references in the scripts...

Look at the images they are "very" different from each other. The lava tiles are not indexed for the same locations on the palette and the elevations are totally different. But don't take my word for it go ahead and do what ever you like.

Dev

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

You just have a misunderstanding of what the palette is. Dragon does not even load the palette, let alone care what is in it. The palette says "5 is green" ? 5 can be blue, red, or even black, and Dragon will still say it is grass no matter which color it is.

So, therefore, an all black palette could represent any map, but it would be a pain to edit. Dragon just ignores it, anyway.

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Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

I think its all of you who don't understand how it works. Look at the index table and the scripts attached to them. Their totally different from mod9+ compared to mod11.

I know they dont load the palette...that would makes sense since the palette is used in Photoshop or Paintshop now wouldnt it...

The scripts are "indexed" off those color blocks weither they have color in them or not. The scripts are "indexed" different between the versions...

The last indexed block on the top row does not have the same meaning in mod 11 as it does in mod 9+. But like I said you can go ahead and do what ever you like if you doubt me.

Dev

_________________
"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

index != palette



The index is the number, the palette is the color associated with that number. Like I was saying, the color (and therefore the palette) does not matter - only the number. Every number could have black assigned to it, and it would still work.

We are saying the same things -- just a terminology issue.

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Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

For example, in old SNES/NES games, they would change the palette to give the screen a dark tone for night, or red for when you died. The indexes in the image representing the screen never changed (which is also what Dragon cares about), but the color (the palette) did.

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Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

Neither of you know what you are talking about

But seriously. You are both right in your own minds, just not explaining it well to each other.

As Syd said, the index is what counts. The rest of the technicalitys Syd presented are right. So in a nutshell, you're wrong Dev...

Now what Dev is saying, while not technically correct does matter from a user standpoint. If you are happily painting away with the wrong colors, results are not going to be what you expect. Syd is too dense to understand what you are saying of course, being a mad scientist chemist/programmer. The main thing you are missing though Dev is the fact that it does not matter what swatch file you use to paint the map, if the index on the image does not match what the maptrans expects you get garbage (worse than random).

People, you can use whatever colortable you want. While the different mods may be organized differently and have different scripts, if you edit the maptrans you can have whatever altitudes you like. Because of the limitations of Dragon, none of the mods present a be all end all to mapmaking. They are what the people who worked on putting them together thought would be the most newbie friendly and generally useful combinations we could fit. Most of the better mapmakers will tell you, they use several different maptrans in the course of making 1 map and then they patch the different areas together into finished product.

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I knew what he was trying to say; I was just being the usual overly-technical bastard I am.

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Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

Well yeah, what I really meant was "Syd is too dense to understand you on purpose", but we all knew that

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I'll try to actually READ, not scan through all that later when I got more time. From what I saw though it's a whole bunch of confusion (doing a kinda big English ISU... due tomorrow... you know how it works).


The index is part of a script? and it'd be like "Hokay! So. This colour, right smeaw is going to be MOUNTAINS!!!!!!"... lol Say we make it grey...

The palette is just like a quick refrence guide? like I could reorder the images I posted earlier and it'd still work fine. (if i'm wrong... then... i'm a dumb ass? lol)

Back to work! lol

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"Don't let your mind wander- It might not come back."

Actually if you read what I wrote that was "exactly" what I said...

Did anyone besides me actually read the oringinal question?...

He asked which color pallette to use with Mod11...which is why I said only the Mod 11 will work with the Mod 11 color pallette, I know all about the indexing and the fact the colors dont matter since the colors were the first thing I changed on my own custom scripts.

Don't read into things it was a simple question with an originally simple answer that got all blown out of shape.

Dev

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

ZeratulsDownfall:

Just tossing my two cents in...even though, I'm sure it's not even worth -that- much... hehe

The two colortables are not interchangeable. Because, since the scripts read and place tiles according to the position of the color used on the colortable *grid*, you'll get different results from each palette.

For example: In the first image, if you use the "-2" mountain (rock) color (the 15th color on that line) and the mod 11 script, you'll get 75 altitude, instead. Because, the script says, for the color in the 15th position on that line, it places mountain at 75 altitude.

In other words, it doesn't read "colors" and know to place, say, grass for green. It places tiles according to what tile is associated with which position on the color grid. "Green" was simply used as a quick visual reference for the user.

Which is, basically, what everyone else is saying.. lol

-CMS
*******

What everyone seems to be missing is the fact that those "colortables" don't mean shit. They are visual aids and nothing else.
The bmp is actually original Dragon. Why it is still in the mod11 distro is beyond me. Probably some lazy bastard (me) didn't do a good job cleaning up the package before he uploaded it and an even lazier bastard didn't qc it after it was uploaded (Ry).
The png that Matonor made is an accurate representation of the mod11 palette (even though I used the 3 empty spots for some tests and never cleared them again, they were left there for end user customization) but that is ALL that it is.
The relevant files (for Photoshop users) are the Dragon-Mod11.aco and Dragon-Mod11.act. If your image is not setup with the right act and you are not drawing with the swatches from the right aco then you are going to get crap.
Now if you go and change the maptrans.txt around, again you will not get what you expect, although it will work.

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A quick example on the maptrans-
Mod11 comes like this:
// (00) Grass
00 00 000 0003 0004 0005 0006
01 00 002 0003 0004 0005 0006
02 00 004 0003 0004 0005 0006
03 00 006 0003 0004 0005 0006
04 00 008 0003 0004 0005 0006
05 00 010 0003 0004 0005 0006
etc...

Now let's say you change it to look like this:
// (00) Grass
00 00 000 0003 0004 0005 0006
01 00 005 0003 0004 0005 0006
02 00 010 0003 0004 0005 0006
03 00 015 0003 0004 0005 0006
04 00 020 0003 0004 0005 0006
05 00 025 0003 0004 0005 0006
etc...

Now you go and happily draw your map with the first 6 grass colors. You are going to get grass in both examples, but the altitudes will be different than what the visual aids say.

Let's mix it up a bit more:
// (00) Grass
00 00 000 0003 0004 0005 0006
01 00 002 0003 0004 0005 0006
02 00 004 0003 0004 0005 0006
03 00 006 00c4 00c5 00c6 00c7
04 00 008 00c4 00c5 00c6 00c7
05 00 010 00c4 00c5 00c6 00c7

Remember anything preceded by "//" is a comment; it has no effect on the script and is there so you have some clue what you are looking at.
We draw a map using the first 6 grass colors again, but where we expected grass at 6,8 and 10 Z we are going to find forest. Why?Because we changed the tiles that we are placing for index positions 3-5. Can we do this? Sure. But it is a shitty way to organize things and unless the person who made these poorly organized changes is the person using this maptrans all kinds of needless confusion results.
This is why we try to keep things in nice neat little groups and we include these visual aids (bmps, pngs, and labeled swatches)

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We are all saying the same thing, but using different terminology.

Palettes (in this context) are arrays of 24-bit color values.

An index is the number assigned to each palette entry.

In an 8-bit bitmap file, the palette is stored at the head of the file (usually), followed by an array of palette indexes describing the image (the image data).

Dragon ignores the palette, and reads only the indexes into the palette. Therefore, which palette you use is irrelevant because Dragon will never even look at it anyway.

The palettes provided are given to you as a visual aide to associate different index values with colors that seem logical (green for grass), and are just meant to make your life easier. So, what Dev said is correct (even though he is technically wrong), you should use the Mod11 palette if you want to take advantage of an accurate visual aide. Alternatively, paint the map using only black, if you are into a fun challenge. You can create just as good of a map using red for grass as you could if you used green.

As for swatches -- that is a less accurate term that means the same thing as "palette" in this context. Or a watch made by a Swiss watch company.

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Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

Did you read my first post? I was the one that told him what you just said then everyone else wanted to get all "Technical" on him.

He simply asked if the first color table (on top) could be used or if the 2nd color table (the one on the bottom for Mod 11). My reply was the Mod 11 table... So your saying that your not suppose to use the Mod 11 color table with the Mod 11 Dragon?

No wonder I drink so much after hanging around you guys! (like I need an excuse)

Dev

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"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"

_________________
Blog: http://www.sydius.org
Web: http://www.sydius.net

Aww I think we all need a group hug and to sing a few bars of "I'm so pretty!"

Dev

_________________
"So...if crazy people don't know their crazy...does that mean your only sane if your know your crazy?"