Ryandor.com

Bascially I think it is time to start on the Studio.

I believe that consists of the ability to build structures, edit maps, and generate maps. As well as the ability to combine them of course.

Now is the time to provide input, on what one would like to see user interface wise. Is the concept of a placing grid good or bad? How should one be able to select items covered by other items?

Is drag/drop desired/needed? Should it be changed?

Should seasons come back in ?

Pretty much anything is fair game, comment wise.

I guess we can say cancelled due to lack of interest *grin*

Where I stand is the a small set of classes that read and display the basic graphics for UO (Mac, intel and PPC, and Windows). They use a small amout of memory, and are relatively fast.

Now, I am about to work on the map. The decision point here, is to do the Studio, or the client.

Doesn't seem to be a lot interest in the studio.

Just trying to decide where to put in the time.

Interest in Studio to be noted!

Although, it would be nice if Worldmaker was finished to the point it was usable to make a map properly :P (Although that might be Stormcrow's thing now, and not yours)

I believe the major thing lacking at the moment is data (which is not my forte or area). I recognize that the art generation could be improved. However, I hope to add the generation portion into the editor/studio, so I figure I could address that then.

Just my opinion on what I think is needed.

We need a decent set of tools for mapping, everything so far is incomplete/beta/alpha/etc.

I think a good map studio would consist of.

A) The ability to generate the map from a BMP file (Like Worldmaker already does)

B) Edit the map in realtime (Like Worldforge) so you can fix mistakes, tweak, do things that are hard to do with a BMP file, etc.

C) Edit the statics of the map, to build/remove structures/scenery, and make the overall experience of world building easier without having to do it in the server itself.

An Idea I just had, what about a Server to Client thing for the Statics. So multiple people can connect to a Builder Server, and work on the Statics together.

Kinda like a Multi-user Worldforge, without the overhead of the UO client and server.

Im just thinking along the lines that most shards have multiple people working on the buildings and such, so a single user/solo building program for statics isnt going to be much use for many people.

Whereas map editing usually is done solo, or by a single user.

I mean, we also need a decent custom UO client, but thats another story :P

Interest here as well!!

Some features/comments:

- Keep all of the current features in the various worldmaker programs, just try to consolidate them under one easy to use interface (no easy task I know).

- BMP-2-MAP and MAP-2-BMP ability.

- Real time editing.

- Static extract and storeage (using the same format as before) with the ability to maintain a library of saved structures (a preview window for structures would be great too so you can browse through them).

- DIFF file support (use, save to, remove from)

I also made some recommendations on Worldmaker awhile back in your WM forums that would probably still apply here.

_________________
-= HellRazor =-
Shattered Sosaria is coming!
http://www.shatteredsosaria.com

Please elaborate on what is meant by this.


Hmm, like the ability to copy and save to mlt files? Just need a preview?

I'd be indeed interested in a Studio program...
First of all I like the idea of letting more than 1 people connect to a server and edit data with a dedicated client... but... this makes sense only if the lowscale editing functions are at least as powerfull as the combination of uoclient+runuo+pandora's box 2
not only the basic function like moving an item, setting the color choosing it from a palette, tiling with z offset and so on... but also the advanced commands runuo lets one compose such as...
[area set inc z -5 where item itemid == 1234 hue == 67
and so on...
a complex combination of boxes where one can set conditions and so one wouldn't have the same quickness, pandora's box has it too, but I never use them...
So, the Studio client should able to issue commandline commands to the server.
If you can achieve this and at the same time create something dedicated to world building, the tool will be successfull, because it will become THE world editing tool. Otherwise it would be, like all existing uo world editing tools, just one of the 3-4 tools needed to complete the project

Athoer mixed ideas: both largescale and lowscale editing are needed.
No need to reinvent the wheel adding photoshop-like functions, you'll never achieve the same quality, so bmp importing and exporting is needed
bmp of what? of whatever aspect of the world can be inprinted in a bmp: height, terrain type, statics, caves and floors...

Another important things... data should be kept as much as possible separated in project file. No need to put randomly generated statics in a mul together with shallow water static tiles and so on... One should be able to regenerate random statics as many times as he wants without touching the other static data... The must be various "layers" in the project

and lowscale editing should be able to edit the objects inside the various layers... say you delete a tree which was generated randomly.. you just remove it from the "radom art" layer... not from the mul
The mul generation should be only the last stepin the wolrd building

Now.. I'm not saying this is simple, I'm a programmer and I know achieving all this is complex and requires skill and a lot of time... but this is what I'd like to use to build my worlds

Here's a few things I think might work in an update in the map editor:

1. Make the selection "square" drag at an angle like the real map shows instead of straight across and down. It should reflect the same perspective as the map IMHO.

2. How about a "goto" entry box right6 on the main page instead of having the <ctrl> G option.

3. Maybe an option to have the altitude show right on the tile in "flat" mode like Worldforge.

Here are a couple for the multi editor. Prompt for a "Save File?" if you quit and have mods not yet saved. The map editor does that and it would be consistent to have mul editor do the same. The same idea as above with the selection of areas.

_________________
Sincerely,
Yukiko
Titus 2:13

Sorry. Found a couple more.

When one performs a goto it might be a nice feature to highlight the go location in the drawing window (again similar to World Forge). I know most people are uaually looking for an approximation anyway and it is in the centre of the drawing window but sometimes I am wanting an accurate go to and a red outline of the go place would be nice.

Another challenge that I would like to see addressed is regarding the "layering effect" of artwork and the difficulty in deleting items that seem to be "beneath" another item. To see what I mean place art item number 3484 and then place its corresponding leaf structure 3487. Now try, by clicking on the tree trunk, to select only the trunk for deletion. You can't. I have found a workaround that sometimes is effective but not always. Now I realize you most likely won't ever want a tree without a trunk but this same problem applies to any artwork placed in the map. Sometimes you want to remove an item but it is blocked by something else that prevents the removal. You end up having to remove the item(s) that seem to be on a layer above the one you want to delete before you can delete the one you are after.

_________________
Sincerely,
Yukiko
Titus 2:13

yea, we have a dialogue going!

Now lets see....

Selection:

I assume the ctrl-key should add to the selection (or subtract, if all ready selected).


The desire to select a tree branch without leaves. This is one of the stickier issues with the image selection. In many instances, the picture of one just isn't that many pixels, and makes it hard to select just itself. I am not aware of a lot I can do about this, short of having another window, that shows a list of allow selected, and let one also select/deselect in that window. Seems a little clunky.

Area select. This is the stickest selection issue. One selected an area. There is not a good way of knowing if one is wanting what lies below the visible image (and more important, to actually know what is visible at that time, without a lot of work). I many times have toyed with just getting rid of area select. I am open to any input on how users would expect this to work, and how they feel the presentation whould work.


goto
There is a shortcut all ready for goto. Are you indicating that is inadqueate? I am concerned of taking up real estate. As for showing visible location, I understand the desire. The concern is when does that visible indicator go away? I thought the compromoise of showing the x,y coordinations as one moved the mouse over the diagram would suffice (as the goto tile is in the center, and one can get the exact with that indicator). But open for input or thoughts on how this should work.

First, before I get into my reply, I want to tell you how much your programs have helped me with fixing/decorating my map. I confess however that I did find World Forge handy for a couple things but your proggies have been the predominant ones I have used. Especially when I needed to remove statics from the map.

Now to respond...
As I said regarding the tree and leaves issue it wasn't specifically a tree and trunk I was interested in. That just happened to be a good example because I happened to have that tree in view in Wfmap at the time. It could be any art item where you have one on top of another with part of the lower one visible. It seems as if the upper one is on a layer similar to the way Photoshops layers work. You can drag select a large area and while holding down the <ctrl> key deselect all but the one that you wish to select usually.

As for having a Goto text entry box on the main page, World Forge has that feature and I find it easier than having to use a short cut to bring up a text box. I don't think having a textbox wide enough to accept 9 characters for a goto would eat up too much realestate.

Now to the selection of an area. I was refering to left click dragging the mouse over an area. I think it would be better if the selection square/rectangle were tilted at a 45 degree angle like the map. That way you would be selecting squares properly along the X and Y axis. What you would see in the editor is a diamond shaped selectiuon rather than the zig-zagged "rectangle" and it would be selected in perspective with the world map. I hope I am explaining that in an understandable way. I suppose I could create a couple images if need be to give you a visual.

_________________
Sincerely,
Yukiko
Titus 2:13

By "real time editing" I was just mirroring what others had said, basically just to keep the ability to edit the map in "map view". Not really a change, you already have this. I'm probably stating the obvious with that one.

On the .mlt files - yes, exactly. I'd like to see MLT functionality included and brought under the roof of the "single map building interface" rather than being forced to use an external program. I'd also like to see an expansion of MLT features, most notably the ability to maintain a database of .mlt's that you can scroll through with a preview window, to make it easy to find what you want and place it into the map easily from the same window. And I still recommend the ability to import and convert files from other formats (.UOA and txt) into .MLT.

I'd like to echo recommendations about a client/server interface as well. The ability to put a map online for several people to work on would be wonderful. Right now many people do most of their map work (especially statics related work) by logging in with their EMU and building online for this reason. And again, its always a pain to have to use multiple utilities and methods to do map editing, as you constantly have to load and re-load programs, move and copy files, etc. etc.

_________________
-= HellRazor =-
Shattered Sosaria is coming!
http://www.shatteredsosaria.com

Wouldn't one still have the extra utility problem? Unless it was buit into the emulator and client tool (some admin tool like Razor), it would seem one still has to have a seperate program (and server as well). I understand the fundemental request to be able to do simaltenous group editing. Just didn't understand how this would eliminate people having another tool aside from their emu/client/razor.

I'd like to get rid of emu, uo client and editing tools such as pandora's box and just use
- Punt's Suite Server on some server machine
- Punt's Suite Client on each pc who wants to connect to Punt's Suite Server and build

The server should manage authentication and modify the map as requested by the Client, as well as managing synchronization of data
All data should be both on the server and on each client
Each modification done by a client should be sent to the server and the server should send the modified data to all connected client
A client which connets should check for updates

The client should have the following structure:
On the bottom there should be a text box which lets one issue text commands, like uo client, but there are two modes which can be toggled:
- large scale, which is a sort of Map Generator
- lowscale, which is a sort of Worldforge
But in both modes the commands are all translated to text commands, there shall be nothing doable only with visual editing

So, I understand the assumtions and limitations:

Assumptions:

1. All other muls (art/tiledata/hue/texmap/animdata) must be the same on each client and the server.


2. Each client shall recieve their map data from the server.

Limitations:
1. During a map generation, clients are locked.

Understandings:
1. Editing a bordeing tile (such as altitude), can affect tiles around it.

Questions:
1. Should a section of the map be able to be locked by a client (and prevent other clients from editing)?
2. Other clients should only see the result of editing, not the editing action (such as drag/drop, not see the drag)?
3. How does saves versus undo happen?
4. Each client's undo is for their edits, not a single undo stream?
5. Is there a master client for saving, etc?
6. Should edits be propagated immediately, or should clients have the ability to "refresh" to sync up due to possible performance.
7. Editing is always done via a single stream (server). There is no need to provide independent editing that must be merged in later?
8. Does this apply only to the map, or to structures as well (recall, a studio applciation. So one can edit mlt files as well)?


Editoral:

I really cant see this approach being used. I believe most would fall back to a server/client/admin tool. What I can easily envision is the ability for two or more people to be able to edit a map, and progagate their edits after some period of time to the others for incorperation. Conflict editing would be managed by the people (dont edit past x,y, etc).

However, I am more then willing to pursue it. Just not sure the usefulness of it.

Well.. first of all I want to make it clear that I don't have a completely clear idea of the way it should be managed, I'm trying to figure what could be the best solution (not only for me of course) and trowing ideas as they come (ok, I apply some filter )

I think I have to describe my idea a little better, I think this will answer a lot of you questions and break some of the assumptions you have done.
First of all I don't want a tool which edits muls. There are tons of tools which do that and some (especially yours) do their job quite well.
If you want to develop an all inclusive uo worldbuilding studio, then I think you should go to the next level. What is it? Well, stadard uo mul editing tools such as Dragon, Map Generator, Worldforge and so on just take data and convert them to muls or directly edit data in muls. I'd like your Suite (le'ts call it Punt's Suite ) to create a project file which contains data in a different way. map tiles and static items are sored in muls because the client needs to access them quickly and it only cares of their look and properties related to the game. But this data structures doesn't reflect exactly the design of a world. static0.mul has inside it trees randomly generated to create a forest together with the mighty tree of life which has been hand placed by a builder... there's too much precious data lost when you put stuff in muls!
Andhere comes my idea: let's have a world editing Suite with which one can create a world project. The world project will have various objects and builders will edit these objects. They won't edit muls! the generation of muls will be the final step. So, summerizing it... The chief builder creates a world project, then any number of builders (I'll discuss later how) edit this project and whenever the project reachs a new stage the chief builder generates the muls. If later something must be modified in the world, one opens the project again, edits it and at the end generates a new version of the muls. There shall never be direct muls editing, never.
Some examples of the power of such approach: I can define any number of random statics generation areas and give them a name. If randomly generate trees in a forest and I don't like the result I can regenerate them just hitting a button. And this can be done also if months have passed and someone built a new town on the map! Because no direct mul editing is done. The town has been added as a group of statics. It has its name in the project and it's placed in the mul every time the muls are generated. So I can have separate names for eah building and group them with a treen structure. I can lift a town which groups buildings and all building will be lifted and so on. I can open a window to edit a building static by static and then save it as a new building to be placed somewhere or replace it to the existing one.I can ask the suite not to show something, such as a building or the terrain map, the floors, the doors. I can say the project to show something but to exclude it from exportation in the mul when the muls are generated (useful for doors). I can set a plugin which, when I generate muls, says the server to generate dynamic doors for the doors I've set as dynamic. and so on, I think you got the picture.
Now, my only concerns are:
- it's a pretty complex project
- performance when trying to render in the Punt's Suite Client suc ha complex data structure: there's no more a plain collection of static items, but a lot of data listed with criterias which have nothing to do with coordinates.

The second important subject is: we want more than one builder to be able to edit the world project. Were is the project? who can build it? How do the handle concurrent editing?
First of all I think the project file should stay in a single place. the single builder might have the data about some buildings and such, but the whole project should stay inly in one place. There should be a Punt's Suite Server which is an executable separated from Punt's Suite Client. It's the only one who generates a project and modifies it. The clients only send requests to him and he processed them. But this does not prevent a Client from having offline editing capabilities because the client can request the sever to send back some of the project data: the whole map, a section of the map, a building, a group of builings and so on... What's cool is that the server could deny access to the requested data! In fact there should be a way to grant permissions to download and to edit project objects. And there should be also the ability to grant editing permissions in a portion ofthe map (useful if one wants to teach a new builder how to use the Suite and test his skills ans reliability before granting him access to the whole project or to some other portion of it)

Finally, there's the problem of clients refresh. Indeed one can edit a huge amount of data in few seconds, for example one could lift the whole world (map, buildings, random statics, everything...). Propagating all the data in realtime would freeze the clients. I'd probably go for an hybrid solution: client are informed realtime of which map coordinates have changed. A map coordinate changes when a map tile or static object inside it has changed in any way. Then the client takes his time to receive the detailed update. During the time in which the client knows the coordinate has changed but does not know how, thos coordinates need to be shown with some proper visual effect and editing by the client is locked untill the details of the update have been received. Just an idea, but it might work


Ok, now it's time to answering your questions punt:
1. Yes, this is indeed a nice feature. but it's important it's a feature and not a limitation, so I should be able to lock a section of the map, but not obliged to do so. This means the way the server manages data and synchronization should not rely on this locking possibility
2. Do you mean something like Bob drags a wall and Alice sees the wall shifting in realtime? I don't think it would be something to spend time on
3. Not sure what do you mean here. Maybe the answer n.4 covers this too?
4. there should be separate undos. One is a client undo which undos what has been done clientside (for example when you are editing a building offlien to later send it), the other is a server undo which undos the commands sent to the server
5. I think the best solution is to have a master server, which is an executable separated from the client. It's the one who keeps track of clients connections, which does authentication, which receives alterations requests and sends the result to all the connected clients.
6. Nice question. See the above hybrid idea about client data refreshing
7. offline editing and later synch is a nice plus indeed, I'd love it. See above when I say that centralized project does not necessarilty mean the client can't download, edit and submit
8. structures as well, otherwise it will never be a all in one studio. But this does not mean, as above stated, that I want a direct statics editing

Now, more features coming to my mind:
1) In uo client it's easy to show something to another builder because speech and the character helps. But Punt's Suite Client does not a character and does not need speech inside the viewspace. You may add commands to send speech to other Punt's Suite Clients connected to the server, but ICQ/MSN/SYPE/whatever can help so it's not foundamental. What iss foundamental is a way to show a static object or a map tile, a way to say "this one", and I suggest some visual effect associated to some "show" (in command line terms) command, which lets the builder select something to which apply the visual effect for all connected clients which are viewing what has been selected
2) clipping is needed as well as view toggle by types (doors, floors, roofs, walls and such) is needed
3) view toggle by static id is a must
4) view toggle for map is a must
5) I'd like to have the ability lo load some text file which defines static items with some structure to be added. This is very useful if one wants to integrate the suite with some ingame building system (of course emu scripts are up to the user)

I hope all this makes sense and my mad ideas don't bother you

alot of ideas , only i wonder are they really the most important?
Well making a Client sounds Very good only a big question WHat for? To waste time in what can make small Tools , Please Make Anim editor
P.S Osi gonna make new client , 3d one

Source?

Well, understand the main reason I code, is for enjoyable, and learning. So, taking on more challenging tasks, is a source of enjoyment. I recognize that it may not be as useful to any given person, but that doesn't make it a waste of time for myself *grin*.

In additin, one could have said that over emu's (why waste time, OSI has a server). It is a matter of being able to modify it as one desires, same as server software. In addition, I don't know of any OSI client that works on Mac OS X *grin*.

Now, an animation editor, isn't really that. One people are really looking for, I think, is an animation patcher (for one builds the animations in some graphic program).

I guess the fundemental "challenge" for this type of program, is the "packaging of it". It isn't clear to me a clean way to presen to the user, to allow one to add frames (is graphical really what one wants? The number is large, it seems editing a txt file and the batch processing makes more sense) and allow the user to specify the centerx/centery (required). My understanding, is mulpatcher or tdv or something does this.

now, on the other end, the Map Editor, is horribly done in the OpenGL sense (extremely ineffecient). From a user perspective, reading HellRazor input, it is really a draft alpha. It needs a lot of refinement from a usability perspective.

So, not sure animation makes the most sense at this time (not saying never, just isn't clear it is most pressing, and I really dont have good concept of how the user would interact with it).

Punt, I was expecting some kind of comment to my poem... err, reply
I'd like to know if the overall idea I expressed meets your tastes or if you had something completely different in mind

About an animation editor... I was developing one, but it's unfinished due to lack of time. It's designed this way: It uses the same format TdV Mulpather uses ()in a txt file) to import and export frames positions. The user can define a folder which contains an animation in the form of a collection of bitmaps with a proper name (if I can remember right its the same name with which TdV Mulpatcher extracts them). Then the tool has a listbox which lets one select the animation type (attack 1 hand, bow, cast and so on), the direction (the 5 directions) and a slider to select the frame. The cool thing is that the tool has a checkbox to enable and disable the showing of the body (which can be set male or female with a radio button) with a frame synchronized to the frame shown for the animation in development. This way setting the position is way easier than opening the client, checking the result, closing it, editing manually the txt fle, export the new mul, overwrite it in the uo folder and restart the client to check the new result. Another cool thing is that when a mounted animation is selected you may see the horse, again to make it easyer to set the right position. I think this is the best way to make an animation editor for equipment animations. And it could be extended to other types of animations (npc and pc bodies)

I have mentioned it over on Run UO (http://www.runuo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72039), so I thought I'd mention it here.

I'd like to, either, edit the map in-game, or view the map as it would be seen in-game.

Also, the ability to take a screenshot of various parts of the map would be good.

The ability to drag-and-drop a static onto the map (say, a tree) may be a good idea too.

The map editor does let you see the map as it would appear in game.
Not sure what you mean by that second part.

Ripping up an old topic



I think he means as WF does it, and that is what you meant it already does I guess.


On to my own thoughts. User interface should be easy to understand, help text appearing and such. It should have drop menus for selections.
More:
* Map Generator / Dragon style map editing (Large scale) [Others have mentioned this]
* WF Style editing
* Server/Client sync as others have mentioned, for less BW usage have as it updates every second instead of as soon as something is edited, this makes simultanious editing less "dangerous" (chance of ruining each others work lessened)


But what I really would like to have was a UO client (like God client) for editing the map directly from IN-UO perspective, editing the muls while actually playing (so it can be used as a GM tool for helping at the same time).


Sorry for saying random crap, I am tired